Course Sharing and the Canvas Trust: Using Cross-Enrollment for Student Success

Okay. I think, the folks coming into the room has turned into, trickles, so we will get started. Welcome, everybody. You ready? It's the afternoon. I wanna increase the energy level. Hi, Brian.

Hi, guys. Alright. My name is Matt Patinski, and I am CEO, of Parchment, which as we just talked about is part of Instructure now. And I am incredibly excited to continue the conversation we had on the main stage here and expand the experts who are involved and talk about core sharing generally. And when we think about core sharing, we typically are thinking university to university, but within core sharing, I also wanna nest the notion of dual enrollment because that is a type of course sharing, just one that crosses higher ed and and k twelve.

And joining me, I will introduce our panelists. We have to we have doctor Marina Amini, who we already met before, who is executive director for the California Virtual Campus and vice chancellor at Foothill De Anza Community College. So thank you. And then we have doctor Leslie Kennedy, assistant vice chancellor, academic technology services at Cal State University's office of the chancellor. And then I will say we have mister Joseph Teal, interim deputy commissioner for academic research and student affairs at Montana University System.

So thank you. And so to kick things off, I'm gonna ask Marina to please, just frame a little bit more about the nature of course sharing, and then we'll get into a panel discussion. Alright. Hi, everyone. How are we doing today? Woo.

I like that. Alright. So I always like to kind of frame the conversation around course sharing with a student anecdote. I think it really reminds you of why we do this work. So the case study I'm gonna share with you today is Mateo.

And I've got some details about him that might resonate and you may be serving students that have one or more of these or or different traits, but I think you'll get the picture. So Mateo is a first generation Latinx student. Maybe he's an immigrant like I was. I was also first gen. He attends a rural remote college in Central California.

And you heard me say earlier on the other stage that we have one hundred and sixteen community colleges in the state. Some are super rural and remote and tiny, and some are big city and highly accessible. So he is one of the more remote students in those colleges. And he's majoring in business, he wants to transfer, money's tight for him, and he's working twenty five hours a week, which a a large number of our students are supporting themselves and working part time. So time is also tight.

Right? Money's tight, but time is tight. And although he's almost ready to transfer, he needs that those final two courses to transfer to, you know, maybe it's a CSU or maybe he wants to transfer to UC Berkeley in the college, but his college offers, you know, one on campus and one during a time that conflicts with his work schedule. You know, really an online course would be highly desirable for someone like Matteo. Right? And his college doesn't offer it. So what what recourse does Matteo have? What would you do if you're Matteo? You need a class that's not offered.

Well, you got a couple options. Right? You can wait, and maybe your college will offer the section you need next semester or maybe next year. And it may still also conflict with your schedule at that point or not be offered online. So that's a risky option that we're giving Matteo. The other option is Matteo could apply to another college.

Right? So he could apply to a neighboring district or college. What does that look like? Is that easy? Do I make that easy? No. Right? We you know, the the bureaucratic mess of going through an application process for a student who's first gen, who's really already at risk. Like, we're almost losing him. He's working hard to stay in.

It's a lot. He's gotta wait for the application. He's gotta fill out a very usually unfriendly application. He has to wait for a new ID, email address, and then a bunch of other stuff that maybe we tag on like an orientation or an online module that he has to complete. So he feels very discouraged.

The the guy is like two classes away. And this is where this really sets the stage for course sharing and the benefit that it can bring to students like Matteo. So what do we mean by course sharing? Sometimes you'll hear me also say cross enrollment. It's really the same concept. It's this idea that we can open our borders of our schools and allow our students to seamlessly take class at other institutions without going through that painful bureaucracy of applying and waiting and orienting and all of that.

So that's what core sharing allows you to do. It does require a different sort of frame of mind. Right? That we don't own the student, but we want to support their journey and give them what they need. So I've kinda got this little chart here that gives you sort of the benefits of what a typical enrollment would look like versus course sharing. Really on the typical side that I described, you've got that long application, provisioning, maybe there's a required counseling appointment which many colleges require now, definitely a wait time, and then this lack of unified experience.

Once the student gets into that second college, maybe they have to find a whole login for their Canvas site. Maybe they have to find different credentials or authentication. It's it's messy. They've gotta keep track of a lot of details. Cross enrollment, which all three of our systems doing, and you're gonna hear my colleagues and I speak about today, does not require an additional application.

There is no secondary application. Why are we doing that to Matteo? You've already got his stuff. Right? You've got all his information somewhere in the system. Just pull that information and use it. Doesn't require additional logins, provisioning, or new emails.

You stay within the same Canvas site as well, the home college Canvas site. No additional matriculation, instant enrollment using the platform takes one or two minutes, and that unified dashboard for the LMS that I mentioned. So these are the key benefits to course sharing. And why do we why do we wanna pursue it? Right? Why would your system why do I care to come and kinda tout course sharing to you? In the California Community Colleges, we've seen enormous benefit and use for students for a variety of reasons, not just the the scenario that Matteo has. But it's this access to the larger portfolio.

You're not just restricted to what your home college offers, good or bad. The college doesn't have to be everything to everybody. Right? Flexibility for sure, more completions, and then that unified experience. But also colleges benefit. Right? Because if you're able to fill your seats with students outside of your normal area through a course sharing platform, that's good.

You don't have to let go of your part time faculty or cancel your classes. And And then also this you can work with other colleges to create these fully online pathways that maybe you don't have the resources to have on your own. So those are all sorts of some of the benefits, but I hope to kind of get into it more as Matt will, ask some questions and leave his pedal. Thank you. Yes.

Okay. So picking up where Marina left off, I'd love to hear from the rest of the panel kind of the origin story of your core sharing initiative. Were there particular trends or data or move, from there. Okay. Thank you.

Working? Working? Okay. Yes. Thank you, Matt. So in the Cal State University system, we have lots of students that are taking courses either at the our community colleges or or or wishing they could take it or could have taken them at one of our other campuses. So legislation was, dropped in mid two thousands in regards to, encouraging or requiring us to open up courses in able in order to be able to share them with students or allow students to take courses in other campuses.

So we have twenty three universities in the CSU and, different programs as probably you all have at different campuses. So, we are now fostering that. A student has to be, matriculated at one of our institutions, but then we open up a list of courses that the campuses organize to become available for other students to take, and then students will, if they're interested, can sign up for them and, and then take them at the other campus. And then everything they still maintain their home campus status. Financial aid is there, payments are there, counseling, advising I should say.

All of that is happening at their home campus, but they can take advantage of courses that are potentially not being offered at their institution or that they couldn't get into because as you said, they could have been too crowded or too full or whatever. So that's our our origin story. Thank you. Joe. So I don't have cookies, but who here has been to Montana? Thank you.

If you didn't raise your hand, you should definitely come. It's beautiful. It's also really, really, really big. The south eastern corner of Montana is closer to Texas than it is to the northwestern corner of Montana. And in that huge space, we are blessed with many, many Of those institutions, nineteen are under a thousand FTE.

So imagine tiny, tiny institutions of higher education, serving a massive geography that has a population that is just a little bit over half the student population of Marina's institutions. And for our institution, that's a huge challenge. Operating a university's not getting any cheaper. Demographics in rural areas are a challenge. And frankly, I don't know that higher ed knows how to deal with that.

Universities and colleges haven't trunked in a long time. And there's not a great list of solutions. It can be mergers. It can be closures. And really some of our focus is how by removing these artificial barriers for institutions to collaborate, for students to access coursework across institutions.

Do we help them to become more sustainable, but also to serve their communities more effectively? And if you think about those campuses, we very early on did analysis just the Montana University System institutions. If they were able to share their online catalog at that time, lower division courses at all but one institutions, in a given term, unique courses would double. And that's with a system that has common numbering of undergraduate courses. So those are real opportunities for students to access coursework on a more reasonable timeframe in a way that also we think over time can help institutions to offer more programs to communities that might not otherwise have access because it just wouldn't pencil out for the, for the campus, for the institution. And so that's where I think we're trying to build.

We now have, all but four of our institutions, working through course sharing. We're working to bring on two tribal colleges onto that system. And it's really started with expanding access for students to timely coursework, helping institutions access when they have a shortage of faculty with the right expertise. But where we're trying to build is, how do we create program collaborations that build upon this infrastructure? So that there's greater access not just to course work, but to opportunities, training experiences that otherwise wouldn't be offered in rural communities and that rural communities really badly need. Thank you.

That's very powerful. You spoke a little bit to the origin story. Is there anything you'd like to add? Yeah. Yeah. I would just say, you know, it's a realization that our students are already what we call swirling.

They're already doing this. They're they're looking at other colleges. We're just making it really, really hard and making them go through a full on application provisioning process. And so recognizing, one, that we do it, and then could we do it better? I think that really, you know, aided to to our the start of our whole initiative. Got it.

So I don't wanna shock anyone, but there are two things that are scripted, reality TV and this panel. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask an off script question because it is one that I'm very sincerely interested in. Years ago, you know, I would ask an audience, how many people here now that you've invested in a learning management system, you can deliver courses online. How many people here feel like you have courses that other institutions would love their students to be exposed to because you have great faculty or for whatever reason? And people would raise their hand. And then I would ask, how many of you are comfortable importing courses and nobody would raise their hand? And I said, I'm not an economics major, sociology, but I think that, you know, a market with all supply, no demand.

So my question is the economics question. How do you make the economics work given the funding model of your system so that institutions are willing to offer courses and also have their students take courses elsewhere and ultimately make it work. So who would like it's an off script question. I apologize. But who would like to take the question first? Do you mind, Joe? Sure.

I'll do my best. Right. And I'll I'll say, for us, I think the economics question makes great sense and we've started with a model. But it's a model that continues to have to be interrogated, tested, communicated better. And really in a lot of our discussion, it started with recognizing that sharing a course with another institution is a different type of enrollment.

It's enrollment where what you're providing is excess capacity. And that's similar for that other institution in many cases. What you're providing is, very, very cheap access to opportunities for your students. And how we've initially solved the, or our initial draft of the economics question for our institutions is, that through the technology that we've set up, students collect institutions collect tuition and fees for the courses at that home institution. So the student only has one bill.

They only work with one financial aid office. Their tuition bill is according to the tuition schedule of their home campus. So there's not an incentive to forum shop for the lowest cost provider. And then it ports over the fees for any course level fees that are, placed on that course that are taking through the other institution. So we're trying to minimize some of the distortions on the student end that might cause some concern, but then to have a revenue share on the back end, recognizing that both institutions bear bear some cost.

So the hope is, hey, we fill up courses more. We provide students with more opportunities. And in that process, we also create a revenue sharing model for institutions who specialize in on in online courses without having some disruptions that really drive student enrollment to whole new institutions. I think that's phase one really. I think that where the greater value lies is in phase two where deans and faculty members start thinking about, okay, we built this architecture that previously if we had suggested, our registrars would have revolted and come after us with pitchforks.

And but now that these pipes are basically built and improving over time, you start seeing people thinking, hey, I have an Irish program. Irish language, state of Montana. There's some people who want that, but they can't all move to Missoula, Montana. Or maybe more importantly, I'd like to have a Blackfeet languages program. Turns out we have tribal institutions in our state where some of the only faculty or only native speakers of some of those tongues, teach, provide instruction.

And we have a growing native student population in the university system that we're very proud of, but we can't necessarily find those faculty. So how do we create those partnerships that really add unique value to our institutions and students that just wouldn't be possible with this type of connection? That's very powerful. Thank you. I just wanna say, one of the things that the CSU we have not shared courses or programs or ingested others very easily or well. But, now that we're exploring our our challenges with the drop of enrollments and looking to see what kind of programs we're going to continue, our campuses will continue to offer.

There's been some review as to what the low enrollment degrees are are and that there could be a potential way to combine, the programs at multiple campuses into a singular degree and not have to offer that same degree twenty three times over. And that's not a super popular, notion, but it's something that we're exploring right now. So that's another economic, issue that we're, addressing, potentially addressing with cross enrollment as well. Thank you. Alright.

Let me ask an easily equally easy question, which is about adoption. How did you and I know you're at different stages of deployment, so you can also use this an opportunity to describe kinda where you are in your journey. But how did you drive adoption at the system level and then equally critical, if not more critical, at the institutional level? And not surface level adoption, but, like, true genuine adoption where learners at those institutions really come across these opportunities, engage the opportunities, take advantage of the opportunities? And, Marina, maybe we can start with you, please. Yeah. I mean, this almost, like, leads back to your earlier question, right, about home college teaching college.

And the the the biggest challenge that we face initially with adoption was the sense of threat. I just wanna be real, you know, colleges feel threatened by cross enrollment. They think they're going to lose their students. They think that the teaching institute is going to absorb all of their, you know, money and and revenue and all of that, and then their college is gonna go bankrupt and they're all gonna get fired. Like this is the this is the fear that nobody wants to talk about, but this is really what you're fighting against and that's the challenge.

One way that we, you know, countered that was legislation and then the our student centered funding formula actually awards completions. So the the college that allows their students to go out isn't penalized. They actually, you know, benefit from having their students go out and take classes because they get points toward completion and that brings revenue to the college, and then the teaching college gets revenue from the tuition. So there's sort of this revenue sharing that whenever we would explain to colleges, it would certainly help. Our state chancellor's office also tied some one time emergency funding to adoption, and that was a a big deal.

You know, that really made a lot of colleges that were on the border really step into it and, like, be excited about it in a way that we hadn't seen before. But, I would say those are the two main challenges. The funding, the prioritization, and then really just that sense of threat that people feel about cross enrollment because they they don't truly understand the benefit to students. I'll maybe just add one point because I everything that Marina said is correct and reflects our experience. And I will say we are midstream in our adoption.

I think that, we have reached a scale where we have a proven concept, but it's something that still needs to really get deep into the institution, deep into the faculties. But one thing that I'm glad that we started with is lots of time to focus on the business office, the register office, the financial aid office. Because unless this is something that they can imagine, their office is sustaining at scale, then there's really no sense getting to step two. Because it won't function without, the technical teams being able to work with the product, work with the process in a way that doesn't cause them risk, that fits with their staffing, that fits with their experience. And so when we looked into this product space, you know, three, four years ago, our prime criteria that we came away with was has to integrate deeply with the student information system to automate processes and tasks so that those offices can function.

And second, it has to be as simple as possible to use for students. That it can't create a set of new hurdles and that the ease of use for a student would guide our implementation and our policy decisions. And I would just say, I would just I don't know why I keep turning this off. I would just say that, we're still very much in the beginning in the beginning phases of of becoming more of an enterprise model in this area. But, one of the first steps that this California State University and or the governor's office has required us to do is to move everybody to Canvas, so that would potentially remove barriers for our students coming from the community colleges, but also just within the system.

And then, right now we're working on setting up that Canvas trust. It's a way to, allow for each one of our twenty three universities to, enable single sign on so that students are not having to have duplicate passwords or into the other systems. So that that, those processes flow very nicely for the students. So that's where we are. And then, we're just hoping to catch up with the community colleges and then maybe also begin to trust with them, and so that will reduce barriers students who are moving back and forth between our systems.

Fifty percent of our students are are transfers from our the California Community Colleges. So, as for by way of example. Great. Leslie, it is almost as if you knew the question that I was about to ask. You started to answer it, which is fantastic.

We are at InstructureCon. And so, I am curious to what extent having a unified LMS is sort of foundational to imagining core sharing. Could you imagine doing it in a more heterogeneous LMS environment? And some folks may not be familiar with Canvas Trust, so maybe the rest of the panel could speak a little bit to kind of the role of the LMS, the role of Canvas Trust to make this kind of experience work for learners and for instructors. Really? Yeah. I can briefly kind of explain what the trust is.

So Mateo earlier, let's say he's a student at Lassen College, which is one of our northern most colleges. It's almost in Oregon. It's so north in California, and, he wants to take a class in Pasadena College, which would be like a seven, ten hour drive for him depending on traffic. And once he gets admitted to Pasadena, it's a fully online class, we don't want him to leave his house. We also don't want him to leave his, Lassen College Canvas instance.

Okay. We want him to be able to access that Pasadena class easily and the trust enables that. So, Matteo can take a class at Pasadena and another one at Bakersfield College, which are both super far from him, and yet never have to leave his home or his home Canvas instance. When he logs into his college college's Canvas, his Pasadena and Bakersfield courses will show up on his unified dashboard. He will never have to remember a second set of logins and authentication and websites and so forth.

Great. Two questions, and then just to tee up, we'd love to get everyone involved in this q and a and take advantage of your expertise. I mentioned earlier dual enrollment as a form of course sharing. And I know you're you're working as well on dual enrollment. So, are you the only one? Is any any yes.

You're the only one, I think, Joe, that can speak directly to dual enrollment. Can you talk a little bit about dual enrollment as a form of core sharing, a little bit of the drivers, and kinda what you're doing in in Montana. Yeah. And what I'll say is that we're at the very early stages, but the vision is that I think all of us have experienced massive expansion of dual enrollment in our states. And as much as it's challenging for assuming one of our universities to understand what's available to them, and how to enroll, and all of the cludgery that we create behind the scenes in terms of who to pay, how to pay it, where my results lie, how to access my transcripts, how to ensure that that makes it to my final destination, should I pursue college, how that's captured if I don't pursue college immediately.

Those are magnified at the dual enrollment level. It's also magnified for our institutions who often will work with specific high schools and service areas, again, around a really big state. We have I was very jealous of Nevada. We have three hundred some school districts in the state of Montana and a very strong local control, ethos at the K twelve level. So for all of those colleges trying to provide services to local high schools without stepping on each other's toes while trying to collect revenue that is in part funded by the state, It's a challenging system and process.

I think that what we've shown is that we can remove some of the cludgery on the cross enrollment side. This integration with student information systems can help students see globally what's available to them across institutions in our state without upsetting the registrar's. And our hope is that we can extend that to the dual enrollment space to accomplish a few things. Have a single admissions application for dual enrollment, removing for many of our institutions what is currently a paper based process. Simplifying life for high school counselors in terms of working with multiple institutions of higher education, helping the state understand what dual enrollment courses we are actually paying for.

And then most importantly, for high school students who have concurrent enrollment courses in their high school, early college courses that they can access online, and their counselors understand what's actually available and from whom, so that we have a single route for, discovery of courses, enrollment in courses, and with Canvas and Canvas trust a single environment across those colleges and universities for taking the courses. That's fantastic. Thank you. Before I ask the final question, I need to do a quick poll. How many folks are work at an institution that is part of a system? Okay.

So a lot that's relevant here. How many folks work at an institution that's more of an independent institution, not part of a system? Okay. Fewer than I imagined probably because the topic is core sharing within a system. But my question is as a final question, and it may be a difficult one. Can you speak to institutions that maybe aren't part of big systems, that are perhaps the small liberal arts college that is, you know, struggling for enrollments or struggling to provide access to a broader set of course offerings maybe as part of a consortium.

You know, do do you see ways in which it's just folks that observe higher education that the models that you're developing within a public system context can apply to more individual, institutions or smaller systems. And I know I'm putting you on the spot. This was not a prepared question either. I would just say, you know, the ingredients needed to do core sharing don't require you to be part of the same system. And that's that's the beauty of the technology is that it's sort of agnostic of whether you're in the same system or not.

So at some point, once the California Community Colleges have finished all all implementations, which I'm hoping for, like, in the next year or two, I'm gonna be knocking on Leslie Zohr and saying, hey, let's connect course sharing between the CSUs and the California Community Colleges, and then we're gonna knock on the UC system, Zohr, to get them in, and maybe some private colleges will join our system as well. So it takes an agreement. It takes a Canvas trust for that unified student experience, and it takes the course sharing platform which Parchment offers. If you have those ingredients, you can bake the muffins. I may just add with, an example.

So we are just starting implementation work with two tribal colleges in Montana. Montana has seven sovereign independently chartered tribal colleges. We've had a really good history of partnering with them on policy. And I think four of those seven are part of our statewide undergraduate common numbering of coursework, which I think that having that level of discussion in a consortium in terms of kind of academic trust in curriculum and transfer articulation, That adds a lot of value and simplifies a lot of things. Where we're starting to have conversations is thinking, yeah, where does our business model different from yours? How do we need to adapt other policies in terms of, in terms of revenue sharing to have the incentives also aligned given that they're funded in a very different way than our campuses are.

So I think it adds complexity, but it also can add a lot of value depending on the structure and memberships of the consortium that you're creating. And if you keep in mind the business model and the kind of academic policy and collaboration components that have to go alongside the technology, then I I think it can be successful. And you bring up some really good points in that, there are policies, but also the academic side, whether it's course numbering or semester versus quarters or whatever. But the future is changing. And so, that's part of what we're trying to explore, be more open to is how we're going to be offering and not becoming, degrees in the future, and not become an obsolete university system.

Because we weren't agile enough to think through these different strategies. And so that's where we are at this time at this in the Cal State system. Great. Thank you. I'm gonna ask Matt Serenberg to grab this microphone and we can we have about ten minutes, five minutes, to take, two or three questions.

Yeah. I just I mean, higher education is very traditional and one of the biggest things that we have, we have graduation gals that wouldn't be out of place in the seventeenth century. So, the tradition is ongoing. If the community college has undergraduate courses and so does the CSU and they're priced at incredibly different rates and they're you're actually having people who are teaching them who are part time faculty, it may be a quarter of the full time faculty's pay. How do you, prevent someone from, it's complex question.

I'm sorry about that. Providing excess capacity, where they hire all the part time faculty to teach these classes and steal the courses from other places? So, I would say it's less about part time versus full time and more about course quality. One thing that we've done in the California, system is the California Community College System is to have a quality badge for certain courses that go through a rigorous peer review for course design. It ensures accessibility. It ensures, regular effective communication as expressly stated.

It looks at the assessments for the course and, again, the overall design of the course as well. So to me, it's less significant if it's part time or full time and more significant if that course has undergone a quality review, which we don't restrict to just full time or part time. We're still studying the impact of that badge on student class taking or class enrolling behavior though. So I think that's to be seen. In our part, you know, I think it's it's nice that consortiums can be set up flexibly enough so that you can have and then test out different enrollment limitations.

So for us, we limit students to enrolling in two of these courses per term through the exchange. We have our charges based on the home campus tuition model with the thought that we want students to access a course when it's actually needed or when an advisor points them in that direction. We don't want them to access a course at another institution, simply because of cost or purely out of convenience. We have created processes for exceptions to those rules when an institution and the student agrees. Like, we we need more than than these two courses to achieve our objectives, but it's a process that we're gonna continue evaluating over time.

Those that's where we've started and also started thinking about exactly the conversations that Marina and the CBC have really been leaders on. K. If you're gonna have more cross enrollment, as as well as if you're gonna have a lot more transfer, you need to have systems that build trust across institutions. I think having common numbering in Montana has helped with that because I've been able to go back over twenty years of data and say, hey, look. These students perform pretty well in subsequent coursework.

Those community college faculty are doing okay. But absent some of those systems and absent some control and evaluation, I can understand that concern. Thus far, we haven't haven't seen it really balloon, but we're at, you know, a scale of hundreds of students using cross enrollment, in a term, and we'll have to see as it grows. Great. On the other side, this will be our last question, but I'm sure our panelists will be available after to take personal questions.

Hi. I'm Twinkie. I'm from California State University, East Bay. My question is two part. First of all, this is great initiative, Red Cross enrollment course sharing.

But it's more of a top down approach and it's a linear approach and it takes time. How do you marry or what are the suggestions or strategies that can be implemented between the partners within, friendly networks to expedite it. So I'll give you a specific example. At our at our campus, we have a regional grant that was, awarded through a help of a congressman and it's a federal grant to increase the transfer, ratio between Las Positas and Chabot Community College District into the East Bay University. And we are at that early stages where it's been two years since the grant has been awarded.

We've been doing a lot of outreach and recruitment and that first stages of the enrollment pipeline where we're giving a lot of resources and pathways, streamlining everything for the students from advising to early advising to giving access to their potential degree pathway into the CSU system. But how how do you short circuit that effort, with the bottom up approaches that might be happening at the regional level? And, start doing course enrollment and course sharing between between community colleges like Chabot and Las Positas and California State University East Bay in the next six to twelve months versus waiting for another two years until CCC is ready to start officially partnering top down? That's a great question. A hard question. In the absence of a magic wand, I would say there's no easy easy way to do it. You know, you build relationships, you do the footwork, you visit the schools, you talk to the registrars, you talk to the faculty, you talk to the presidents.

It's really a lot of intensive, long ranging work. It took us like six years to get to sixteen colleges Right. Out of our hundred and sixteen. And now we are almost at seventy teaching colleges, but it's it's a lot of work. I I would say there is no shortcut, unfortunately.

I see. And then some of the people I'm I'm from the IT division. So IT doesn't really get a voice unless you really, you know, push yourself into the conversation and get a seat at the table. But we see these disconnects or opportunities that are missed. So maybe I'll talk offline and get get some insights in how to, you know, get into the networks.

But Yeah. We should meet. Yeah. Let's talk. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you, Melissa. But I do think an important part of Marina's answer is it took sorry, what was the stat? Like, six years. Six years to get to the first The first sixteen. And but then We added fifty in the next two years.

Yeah. So it went a lot faster. But that initial part is so slow and you just wanna give up and cry sometimes. But hang in there. You know, you can build that.

Okay? Don't end on the crying note. Anyone have a cute parchment transcript to share? Alright. Thank you all for joining and please thank our panelists for their great insights. Thank you.