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You are here because you're potentially interested in learning a little bit more about Parkman's diploma services, and we've got a great individual to share his experience with us. So we're joined by Paul Parker from Kennesaw State University. He's the assistant vice president and university registrar. And so we're excited about today's conversation, which is mostly just gonna be about, you know, why they moved forward with Parchment, what the experience has been like, what have been the benefits. And I want all of you to ask your questions as well. So brief agenda.

I'll introduce myself a little bit more. We'll get to know Paul, and then it's gonna be a q and a with Paul Parker. And then I'll I'll have just a few brief slides to just synthesize what we think differentiates Parchment's diploma services from, you know, what you're potentially doing now or other people in the market or maybe what you've done historically. And then we'll obviously pause periodically for audience question and answer as well. That's kind of the benefit of this is you get to ask questions directly to Paul or or to myself, and we try to be really open and candid.

Right? And I hope that's what you take away from today's conversation. We are not a perfect company. We strive to offer excellent service, and we also try to put our. . .

The institutions that we serve at the center. Right? Wouldn't you rather hear from Paul than, you know, Parchment saying how great we think we are? Buy diploma services from us. That's one way to do it, but we want to connect you with your peers and colleagues because they know what it's like to be in your shoes more than than we can. So please put your questions in the q and a. So use that little q and a box.

You can use the chat feature to introduce yourself, but use the q and a to ask questions, then we can track who. . . What questions we've answered. And then all of you are muted, so, you know, you can make any kind of noise that you want.

So the way that you're gonna interact with us today is either through chat or the q and a, and we'll be monitoring that throughout. And I see a few people have raised their hands. I wanna make sure we don't have any challenges, like, the chat is disabled or something like that. So let me get to that in just a bit. So while I'm checking on that and making sure everything's working properly, Paul, I'll pass it over to you and allow you to give us a brief inter.

. . Introduction of yourself. Perfect. Thank you, Matthew.

Good afternoon, everybody. I am Paul Parker. I'm the assistant vice president and university registrar. I have been at Kennesaw State University for almost thirteen years. Coming up in May, I've been the university registrar the last five years.

I started as the registrar, like, 03/01/2020, and I think most of you know by, like, March thirteenth or fourteenth, everybody was running home due to COVID. So I had to pick up the pieces and learn to be a real registrar during COVID. But over the last five years, we have. . .

One of the biggest pieces, as you all know, in the office of the registrar is graduation and getting the diploma to students and to transcripts to students because that's what it's all about, getting that degree, getting that credential, and then providing it to employers, postgraduate institutions for graduate programs as well as sharing those credentials with their loved ones. And we. . . Probably about two years ago, we originally had signed an agreement with a vendor back in 2019.

And as that agreement was coming to an end, I had an opportunity to meet with my director of graduation and commencement and graduation support and say, okay. How can we look at streamlining and then improving our commencement and graduation process? Because at the time, we had two vendors. We had one for the printed copy of the diploma, and then we had the other vendor to do the digital electronic diploma. And I really wanted out of simplicity for our students, one vendor that we could upload at one time all of the students that we have conferred the degrees with. And so make it easier on the students, make it easier on my team because I only have one to two people trying to manage those.

. . This process. So we put it out for bid, and and and Parchment was selected based on their platform and the processes that they had play. .

. In place. One of the things that I really wanted was the opportunities for our students to be engaged with the vendor to receive and and be able to confirm their mailing address because that was one thing we were getting issues with previously. We were getting a lot of returned diplomas. Now I kept looking at all the places we were keeping stacked diplomas, and I'm like, okay.

We can't keep these things here forever. We don't. . . We're not a storage unit.

And so with Parchment, they have the opportunity for the students within seventy two hours to log in, review their mailing address, confirm it. If it's not correct, they can edit it. And as well at that point, once they confirm the mailing address, that electronic digital diploma, they'll be able to grab that as well and utilize it. So this past January was the first time we really did the upload. We went live in and started just kinda doing small numbers of testing as students were being conferred or in the fall for incomplete or grade changes or completing requirements midterm and.

. . Or getting students from the past vendor needing to. . .

A new diploma. And we started learning through the process what we really wanted, so we were prepared in January when we issued or uploaded over 3,400 names that we had confirmed their degrees. And the great thing about that was what we really liked was it was one upload to one vendor instead of having to do multiples or do multiples at times because we could. . .

Even if a student had a hold to hold their diploma, the parchment portal allowed us still to upload the name, and it had a box that would hold it based on the hold. And once the student completed the requirements to have the hold removed, my team member could go in there and check the box to release it, and the parchment process would release it without us having to take any further action. So we had, I think, about seventy two percent of our students from that initial load claim, their diplomas, and then we've had about 1,526 students share their diplomas with other individuals. So we get to see that data met. .

. Those data metrics as well, which is good from a. . . See how we're utilizing and what our students' needs are.

That's I think that's, like, a great. . . The 72%. The digital component's always interesting.

You were doing digital before. Yes. It wasn't brand new, but, like, were you curious? You know, is digital something students really want? Because that's the question that we sometimes get. Like, is digital a nice to have or a need to have? Will students actually care about this? Well, the. .

. Previously, our students had to pay for that digital diploma. And I think there was confusion between the printed, and they had to go out to a different spot. Now it's a one. .

. I'm gonna call it a one stop shop because they can also do diploma and their transcripts all at the same time. But I think the process of going in and doing their name verification and claiming the digital diploma at the same time made us see a lot more. And one of the things that we've been able to do is, hey. I know you need a diploma.

The printed one's gonna be probably four four. . . Two to six weeks based on where you live in the process, but you can go ahead and get that digital diploma and share it with whoever needs it. A lot of international students need the diploma over transcripts.

So I think from our international student base, that was a high rate for them. And I think there were students who were like, oh, I can share this with grandma. I can show it to my mom. I can provide it to my mom and dad and show them I have actually graduated. And that's what we've saw with our student population.

So you mentioned, you know, just wanting to streamline, and you had multiple different vendors to handle the digital and the print. But, like, what synthesize it for me? Like, what is actually. . . What were you actually looking to streamline? Like, what's the tangible kind of pain of two different vendors or the tangible pain that you were trying to solve? Well, I had two.

. . We had the two uploads and the multiple uploads, and I only really have one person. And then I had a supervisor that was going between other duties. And from a resource standpoint, it was time consuming and delays in getting all that.

I needed the upload to be more streamlined, more quick, and the functionality. I didn't. . . I also wanted to cut down on the return of diplomas being mailed to us, then my team has to notify the student.

The student either could pick it up or we'd have to remail it again. And like I said, we were stacking the. . . Return diplomas everywhere.

I wanted to cut down on that and really try to do what we could to get the diploma into the students' hands as fast as possible. And what I liked about Parchment was we could still get the digital diploma in their hand within seventy two hours of them verifying their mailing address even though it might take two to four weeks for them to get the printed diploma. And please ask your questions in the q and a for Paul. I've got a number of questions, but please put your questions in there. This is a great opportunity to ask whatever you you like.

You know, Paul was in a position a few years ago of, like, really thinking about what vendor did you wanna go with, what did they want this to look like. There might be things that you're wondering about, like, in terms of the implementation, whatever it may be. So please put your questions in the q and a. You mentioned the one upload. I.

. . I'm just trying to anticipate a few questions. How many different diploma templates do you have at Kennesaw State? We we only have one. .

. Well, we have. . . We we actually did two uploads.

Great question, Matthew. We did an upload for all of the bachelor's, master's, and doctoral students because their their diploma is, I think, 11 by 13 is the larger diploma. And then we did a upload for all their certificate, which I think is on the So you're right. We did. .

. But it was at one day. It was one time we did the two uploads. So our templates are really two, one for the large 11 by By 11 by eight for the certificates. And tell me, what did Parchment ask you for? You know, like, let's fast forward.

Someone's like, sounds great. I've been looking for something. We've been looking to outsource our print. We've been looking to do digital, but how much effort is this going to be for our teams to. .

. It's always a pain to come up. . . You know, work with a new vendor or partner.

Like, what does implementation look like? What do we ask you for? But I I will say this. The contract was signed, like, June 29, July July 1, around there. We were live by October. So you think July, August, September within three months, we were live with our platform and were able to start uploading names to get diploma. The key factor from my perspective was we needed templates for the diplomas and then signatures that were gonna be on them.

At. . . The hardest part was going upstairs to my provost and president and getting their signatures, but also, hey. One last time, we got a new vendor.

If you wanna change the diplomas, now is the time to do it. And we made a few tweaks, but nothing really major. But then from that perspective, my team worked with the implementation team at Parchment, and we were ready to go really by. . .

Probably by October 1. It was not a lot of implementation. Sometimes we think with a vendor and technology, I mean, was some having to to to do the data security, but it was an easy implementation compared to some of the larger implementations I've had to do with other units or other vendors, I should say. And if you sign a contract today, this is for everybody on the webinar, we will get you live by this year's graduation. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. That's a joke. We are we are not. . .

Don't have the ability to do that. Okay. But this is a good. . .

Kind of a timely thing as we are heading into graduation season. You know, you're gonna go through your process this year, which is why I'm glad we we had the weather around this time because you're gonna be thinking about next year very soon. And so, you know, what do you expect to be different in a few weeks, Paul, than than was last last May? I think we know what we know now and what. . .

The best way to communicate to students about their commencement, the receiving of their diplomas, and so we're putting that information on the website and try to be more streamlined. We've learned a little bit more about the portal and are really stressing our communications to students that, hey. On this date, we're gonna upload your name up into the Parchment portal. And so therefore, be ready to receive an email from Parchment saying you've got seventy two hours to go out there and and review your mailing address and claim your digital diploma. So those are the main things that I think we've learned and how to address that.

And I will say trying to help students be patient with the USPS, United States Postal Service, because we're doing the flat envelopes and through the process. And sometimes they may not always get to the address as confirmed, but that's on the USPS. And we're working through how we communicate that to students. And I do wanna answer Emily's question about the ordering of replacement diplomas and from the student perspective in the registrar's office. So, typically, for a replacement diploma, the student can log back in to their account.

And if the information is previously uploaded, they can go in and log in. And correct me if I'm wrong, Matthew. But then there's a opportunity for them to purchase a replacement diploma, and they're able to do that. If it's a student that we haven't previously uploaded, we will. .

. My team will get notified of that, and then we will upload that student into Parchment, and then they can go back in and check the box to receive their placement diploma. And we do charge a a fee in addition to what Parchment charges so we can come and recover some of our cost to do that. So. .

. And then that fee is anything above what Parchment covers is returned to us for us to utilize for our. . . Covering our resources for that.

Yeah. So there's. . . That's a great great answer.

You know, we we also. . . If you use Parchment for transcripts as well and for and for diplomas, you know, you might have someone that graduated in 2001 that wants a replacement diploma. There's a process for that as well.

So you can put a replacement diploma on your Parchment storefront, and you can issue diplomas not just to, as Paul highlighted, not just to someone who just graduated that you've already uploaded, which those are really easy to reissue. You can also have someone that graduated many years ago, and there's a process to do that. And so that can be another great resource for an institution. And, also, as Paul highlighted, it's a way to charge for it. You could generate some revenue to offset some of your costs as well.

So, question here. I'll I'll tackle one of them. How does shipping work, and how do they handle. . .

How do you handle damages and lost diplomas by the shipper? So in terms of damage diplomas, so there is a QR code that comes with the diploma. So if they're. . . It's bent, let's say.

. . We have do not bend on the envelope or whatever it comes in, but it. . .

Let's say it is damaged, they can request a new one at at no cost. So even though it was the mail service that damaged it, it will send a new one at no cost. So they have a QR code that they can scan and take care of that. Paul, did you wanna add anything else there? No. And I will say I do like your policy that if a student calls and complains that they got a damaged diploma that you would.

. . Your policy is to replace it at no charge to the student and get the information back out to them as. . .

Or the diploma out to them as fast as possible to the correct address. Knowing that it's not your fault, it's not the student's fault, it's the vendor in the middle. But I think from a customer service perspective, that that was good from our perspective. I do wanna answer Naomi's question about late degree conferrals because what we do, Naomi, we we will. .

. And I was telling Matthew before we jumped on, our process is, like, within a week and a half to two weeks after running into term processes, we we utilize Degree Works. So we have a process that pulls report of showing a 100. . .

Students on a 100%. We take those students, and we'll upload all of them once we confer or feel comfortable with a 100%, and we'll upload those students. Then all the other students, what we call the 98% report, my team goes through and validates, and then we will keep that list. And then we will probably within a week to two, Once we. .

. We try to not do one ups. We'll try to say, okay. We get 50 or a 100. It makes it worthwhile to upload, and then we'll upload those students as we confer the degrees, and we meet the minimum that we want to upload.

Now if a student calls and complaints, and we can confer that they've met the requirements, we'll go ahead and upload that individual. And that's one thing we like about the platform. It's fairly easy to do multiples as needed, as well as one of as well, but we tried to make the upload just based on our resources on our team is doing the other things to do that when we feel comfortable to do so. And keep the questions coming. I see some fantastic questions that we're about to get to.

Also, I just. . . I'm gonna post a. .

. I'm gonna share a link to a post of a student who got their digital diploma issued to them. They shared it on LinkedIn, so I just put it in the chat. It's just kinda cool to see students proud of it. Like, how does it normally happen is people take pictures of it and it.

. . But actually it goes to LinkedIn. And, you know, employers can see that or their network can see that. Like, oh, you know, I've got a cousin who just graduated.

I didn't realize that you were an electrical engineer. I actually know someone that's hiring for it. Right? So that's how people get hired is through who you know and networking, and this gives students an ability to to share where the place is. . .

On the places that have actual jobs in in a network. So that's kinda cool. Check it out. There's a a number of different examples. Okay.

So Carrie asked, how do you get notified of a student who hasn't previously been uploaded to Parchment for the duplicate diploma request? Paul, you wanna tackle that one? Yeah. We get an email from Parchment, and then my team member will verify the student. Is the student in case you confer their degree? And then we will just upload that information into Parchment and then notify the student that they'll need to go into Parchment to request. We give them the steps for the students to, go back into Parchment after we've uploaded their name for them to go through the system. Because one of the things by going through part.

. . Because our old process was, I think, Carrie mentioned a form. We had the same thing. They had to submit the form, then we required $50, then the.

. . It would go on their account. They had to pay that. Then once we got that back, we went through that whole process.

This process is we just upload the name to Parchment, send the student back to Parchment to log back in, then they would do the request. They would pay the the fee through Parchment, and then Parchment sends them the diplomas that way. It's kinda removed. In our thoughts, it's a more streamlined process because we're not having to have them pay KSU and our bursar's office. They pay Parchment directly, and then once Parchment gets the payment, they are sending it out.

And then I wanna answer Sofia. . . Sofia's question. Yeah.

I think in retrospect, one of the things I think I would have done differently with Parchment on the front end, I would have requested, because we didn't think about this, having the opportunity to print our own or have the diplomas mailed to us instead of directly to the students because sometimes now we're getting high profile students who want it to be able to pick it up. So I think as if as you feel looking at parchment, think about that, have those discussions on what your processes would be. And I think we would also select the opportunity given the students the FedEx option where, hey. We're paying for this, but if you want the next level in FedEx because you need it tomorrow, then give them that on the front end. We didn't do that with our contract.

So retrospect, that would probably be the only thing I think from. But everything else from a student's perspective, the communication, the buy in, it went well. The one thing is what we had in 2019 in regards to pricing is not 2025 pricing. But there were people on my campus like, why is it now costing us so much more? I'm like, people, it's five years ago. It's called inflation and at the COVID rate.

It's kinda how I put it. But it wasn't a massive jump. It was just different than what we had been paying for four to five years. And from a budget standpoint, people couldn't understand that. And the Yeah.

Have you seen the price of eggs? You know? I know. Yeah. I mean, I paid $7 for a thing of orange juice. Come on. You're getting a diploma, but for that.

We do not handle in house requests who may need their diploma notarized for an apostateal. We have our own apostateal process, but anything related to diplomas, we'd send through Parchment. We do have an process where I do have notaries here in my office that take care of the process. And one question I haven't asked you this before, but I'm curious just because I've gotten feedback from others. And, again, please keep your questions coming.

The quality of the printed, we've heard from some people, oh, based on. . . We were surprised at the quality of the paper. It obviously depends on what you're coming from, you know, what vendor you're using, or maybe you were doing it in house at the print facility on campus.

How has the actual quality of the printed diploma been for you? I don't know if there was a change at all, but just an open question. But what really we were impressed with was in the flat envelope, the dear student letter that you included with the diploma, which was. . . We thought was very classy, and the look of the flat envelope was like you can tell this was a diploma.

It's very impressive. It was a nice touch because previously, we were sending the diplomas through the tubes, and it was just a diploma. It wasn't a congratulatory letter. But the quality of the paper too in the field, you can tell was a a high quality paper. Yeah.

And I think we do a million. . . We've we've done a million printed diplomas. So this is not a small operation.

I almost said 10,000,000, and then I was like, that doesn't sound right. I think it's a million, but it's a lot is the point. So, Paul, is there anything I should have asked you or anything that you wanna, you know, highlight for people that are on the fence or, you know, things that you wanna bring up before we kinda start wrapping up here. Well, let me get to the last question, and then I'll get back to yours, Matthew. Yeah.

The substantial cost to me, I think it was, like, between a jump of 3 to $5 per diploma. But the way I looked at it was we also got the printed process. . . The diploma and the.

. . A better student portal, but the students in addition were automatically getting the digital diploma at no extra cost. Where previously, the digital diploma, we were charging $15 for students to go through it and get the digital diploma. So to me, I didn't see 3 to $5 as an extenuating substantial cost, but it was something that I had to have folks on our campus recognize.

But we charge $50 fee for the application graduation process, which is to incorporate the cost of that. So. . . But that was that perspective.

And then back to your question, Matthew. What was it again? Sorry about that. Just anything that is noteworthy that I didn't ask you that I should ask you or anything you wanna highlight. Yeah. To me, our decision was more the customer service piece to the student, and I like the aspect that the student had the opportunity to control where that diploma was gonna be mailed.

They had seventy two hours to go in and confirm their degree for their mailing address and where they want it to be shipped and go ahead and immediately pull down the digital diploma. That was the perspective. The only the only angst I had on my side was it took the RFP so long, and I had to keep finding people to get it moving. And then then once we signed it, your team turned around. .

. Turned us around in two to three months. But I would say if anybody considering going through the diploma process, finding the right vendor that. . .

For your institution. Think about your processes and your team, what resources you have. Think about the changes that you do think you wanna improve on, how can you streamline the process, and then look for the vendor that will best fit your needs for your institution, but also consider the needs of your student population and and what they wish as well and give them some control. And that's what I think with Parchment, our students have the flexibility and the control to go in and select their diplomas where it's being mailed. But one of the things I like about it too, at the same time they're doing their diplomas, they're also.

. . Could be requesting transcripts because we're partnered with parchment on the transcript size. To me, that's a one stop shop for those students who've graduated. They get the necessary credentials, transcripts needed for their next job, their next graduate school, as they prepare for their life after KSU.

Well, Paul, I've got just a few slides I'm gonna hammer through, but really appreciate you sharing your perspective. Paul will hang out, in case anybody has a question that pops into their head. I also wanna give out to, give a shout out to Sofia Almeida from UT RGV, the president of SACRO, who got this webinar in place. Sofia is on the webinar, she's like, well, I have a chance to introduce myself. You're muted, Sofia.

But we appreciate you being here and setting this all up. It would not have happened without you. So much much appreciated, but please continue to. . .

A smart move, she says. Don't give her a mic. No. We would have loved to have you on. So just quickly going through some of what we highlighted, you know, managing the digital and print in one place, having a one stop shop for your diplomas, the immediate access.

Right? So there's always a delay in terms of when the student gets the printed diploma, the peace of mind that they know that they graduated. They have a digital artifact or digital copy that they can use, and Paul highlighted the importance that that can bring for international students. And then the fast, reliable delivery of the print diplomas, the quality of the print diplomas, and then, obviously, the ability to. . .

Because you have a digital diploma, you can put additional data. You know, when someone clicks on the digital digital diploma, you can put additional data about what that degree means. Some people opt to do that, some people don't. But you can continue the uniqueness of each of your degrees, utilize different templates with simple uploads where you don't have to upload one, like, us based on the 10 different majors or templates that you have. We can make sure that that's easy for you.

And then, again, you can see. . . You can give the instant gratification, instant access to your learners when they graduate. They walk across the stage and.

. . Or maybe it's the following day, whatever it may be. You can actually schedule it. So you can say, I want the digital diplomas to be pushed out at 03:32 on Friday, May 2 if you wanted.

Right? Or you can kinda manually say, alright. We're ready to go. We're ready to go. Let's push them out. But that is just kind of a great thing.

When the students are the most excited about getting their diploma is the day of graduation. Right? And putting something in their hands, their ability to share it, that's kinda when you wanna capture them. And we have a claim rate overall of 80%. As Paul highlighted, when they did this in, what was it, January, you had 72% claim rate, which I think is pretty darn good for January, quite honestly. It's not, like, the biggest, pump and circumstance around graduation in January, so I think that's fantastic.

And here's a testimonial from a student. I'll attach it to jobs I'm applying for. And, again, the social sharing is is a really nice thing where students get to display how proud they are and also get to network with that that degree. And then, you know, from the student experience, Paul highlighted some of this. Right? I've got one login.

What credentials do I wanna order? What credentials do I wanna share? Right? Oh, by the way, I actually do need my transcript. I'm gonna order one of those as well. And there's a a symbiotic relationship of having all your credentials in one place. I'm going there for my transcript. Oh, I'm noticing the diplomas.

I'm going there for my diploma. Actually, I might need my transcript. So it's a single one stop shop. You can collect and manage and then obviously easily share this. And this only grows in importance as we start thinking about more and more credentials.

This is no news to anybody here, but it's like badges, microcredentials, certificates, diplomas, transcripts. There's a lot of conversations in the credentialing world. We wanna make it easier for students to be able to claim, share, and collect all the valuable credentials that they have. And then as as Paul also highlighted, the address verification is huge. Right? You probably do some version of this today.

Right? You send an email out, fill out this Google form, give us your address. A number of the students don't do it, and then what happens? You mail it to mom and dad's house, and the student calls you six weeks later and says, you didn't send me my diploma. And you're like, we did. It just went somewhere else. Or maybe you moved right after graduation, and it's, you know, sitting at the house that you lived in.

It's sitting at your fraternity house, and you just don't have access to it. So this is actually kind of a a little thing, but they get an email. They verify their address, and then the print diploma will be shipped soon thereafter. So it saves you on people get. .

. Know, calling you up saying you you didn't send my diploma. It saves you on returned diplomas and all that business, which is not an insignificant amount of effort, that leads to, a little bit of ease for your office. And then, obviously, the digital is really nice, but the print diploma is not going away. Right? You still want a thing to put up at your graduation party, hang on your wall, whatever it may be, something to hold and be proud of, something to keep under your bed for twelve years and then find it when you're moving to your new house.

That's at least what happens with me. But really high quality print experience, it's gonna look like you want it to look. Right? And, obviously, print diplomas are still very much important. And then, obviously, this fits into the broader vision of parchment. How do we make it easier for students to request, send, share, and collect all of their credentials in one place? Some of you already use us for transcripts.

Some of you do not, but we think this fits in really nicely. And then there's all sorts of different things related to pricing. You know, some people leverage the the cost of their transcripts. So we're gonna charge this much so that it can help offset the cost of our diplomas. Obviously, there's some benefits with procurement, contracting, and things like that as well.

But, really, I think the focus should be on the learner experience and how much easier it is for them to collect, manage, log in, all that business. And I will put this link in the chat if you wanna continue the conversation. You wanna see an actual demo of Parchment's diploma services, we'd love to have that opportunity. Some of you may have already seen it in years past or you're starting your conversation with a sales rep at Parchment. If you're already talking with someone, email them.

But I will go ahead and put in this link in the chat just so everybody has it. You can click on that if you wanna book a demo. But, again, some of you have a customer success manager you're working with. If you've been in a relationship with Parchment or already working with someone, you can talk to them. If you haven't, you can click on that link there.

I'm also gonna put my email in the chat. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions whatsoever. More than happy to assist, steer you in the right direction, or answer any questions that you have. Did. .

. I see we've got a few extra questions. Did I miss anything? I don't see any. So I think we are pretty much good to go unless anyone has another question. I told everybody at the outset, we were gonna be done At the forty five minute mark, and we have made it.

So I hope this was a concise conversation. And, again, the goal is you wanna hear from other institutions, your peers and colleagues. Paul, thank you so much for allowing us to do that and offering your perspective because people wanna hear from you. You're very welcome, Matthew. Glad I can help.

I'll put my email address in in case anybody had additional questions if they think of those after the session. Awesome. Well, that is hugely valuable. Thank you to everybody for joining and taking 45 out of your day to be with us. Don't hesitate to reach out to us.

But, yeah, hopefully, we'll talk to everybody real soon, and good luck with the graduation season. Great. Thanks, everybody.