Reimagining the Liberal Arts: Joe Potvin on the Future of Humanities and Social Sciences in a Digital AI-First World

Welcome to Educast three thousand. It's the most transformative time in the history of education. So join us as we break down the fourth wall and reflect on what's happening, the good, the bad, and even the chaotic. Here's your hosts, Melissa Lobel and Ryan Lufkin.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Educast three thousand podcast. I'm your cohost, Ryan Lufkin.

And I'm your cohost, Melissa Lobel. Today, we're so thrilled to be joined by someone whose work connects education innovation, social science, human centered learning, all interesting and really good topics to be digging into. Joe Potham. Joe is a world history adjunct professor at Simmons College as well as a senior product manager for history at Cengage. And I have had the great pleasure of chatting with Joe about the future of social science, an area I'm particularly passionate in, and even liberal arts education and sort of where is the future going with all of this. Joe, it's wonderful to have you here.

Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really excited about conversation.

So are we. And, Joe, before we dive into our topic, we love our guests because I'm sure some people listening know you, but not everybody will. So we would love you to share a little bit about yourself, your professional journey so that we can get to know you a little bit better?

Yeah. Absolutely. So a long time ago, I majored in history at Rice University in Houston. And then after that, for about nine years, I worked in various aspects of marketing and events management. I hated it.

I hated it. And I realized that if I had one chance to course correct, what I really needed to do was go to grad school for history. So I did that, and I finished my PhD. And like most PhD graduates, I expected a career in academia.

And for me, the first step was I taught as an adjunct for a year, and it was incredibly rewarding in every sense except for financially. So I started to think about what else I could do with a history degree. And I found a job in educational publishing at Cengage, helping the history team develop digital activities. And at the time, that was sort of a pretty new thing for them.

And now I run the higher ed history portfolio for Cengage. And I love it, and I found a great deal of meaning from it. And I still feel like I get to do history for a living, and I still feel really connected to students. And I suspect that that's probably part of what drives you both in what you do as well.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm a history nerd, and I'm about to start my masters in history ASU. So Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So I'm I'm super stoked about this, but one of the things we love to ask all of our guests is for a favorite learning moment. And that can be you as the educator or you as the learner, but something that really impacted your life and maybe was a turning point.

Yeah. So my first experience teaching after grad school was at a university in New Hampshire, where probably about fifty percent of the students were first generation college goers, and about eighty five percent of the students were studying to be nurses. So they weren't in my class because they loved it. They were in my class.

They were in my class because they had to be there. It was a requirement. Yeah. And kind of from the drop, what I realized was that I needed to make this in some way fun for them.

I wanted them to enjoy it as much as they possibly could, and I wanted them to take something from it that they could take with them in their private lives and in their professional lives, but there'd be something useful that they could get from it. And I think I did a good job of that.

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, once you make that connection or you find that, you know, I love patterns in history. Right? Everything's kind of a cycle.

And you see these recurring patterns. Once you realize that or you realize what you're interested in, it's, you know, much easier to get hooked and do that homework. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. I think it's that pattern or those as Ryan described it, or those I'm gonna call them durable or soft skills or I was a history undergraduate. I was history and political science, so I had the two degrees that nobody knew what to do a job with once you were out of your undergraduate. But I think there are skills that I tap back into all the time from just the fundamentals of learning those fields. And so let's start maybe, Joe, with social sciences and liberal arts in general have often been seen as more traditional fields.

But I know, you know, you and I, when we started chatting and we really headed off, you've argued that they're becoming more essential, especially in a digital first world. And I totally agree. How do you see the world of liberal arts evolving as we think about the future of work in society? And you think back to that favorite learning moment even.

Yeah. So what I would say is that for about a generation, STEM students have been told, hey, come with us, and you will get a chance to build this digital first world, or help build this digital first world. And they came, and they did that. Right? But still, we need people in that environment who can write and communicate, who can think critically, and who can find nuance.

These are real skills. They are absolutely practically applicable in the professional world of twenty twenty five and in everyone's personal lives as well. And these are not just any skills, but these are skills uniquely practiced and learned through studying liberal arts, through studying social sciences and humanities. So to me, I think what STEM has done such a great job is being loud and clear about the value of the education they provide. And the more traditional liberal arts, things like social studies and or social sciences and humanities are just starting that conversation. So I think that's where we need to go.

And I think that's really interesting because, you know, we talk about the larger ROI crisis around what the value of a degree, but I think that's even more impactful when it comes to liberal arts degrees. Right? So to your point, like, what can institutions do to better articulate that value to give students more tangible tools, I guess, as they go out into the workplace?

Yeah. So I think what your question comes down to is something like what is saying it loud and clear look like? Yeah. Right?

So I'll give two examples. The first one is personal. The personal example is it goes back to those nursing students. And I remember they were studying for their first history exam, and they were terrified is probably extreme, but but they were really worried.

And the reason that they were worried is because they were trying to jam their heads with as many names and dates and places as they possibly could. And the reason they were doing that is because that sort of rote memorization of minutiae is exactly how you ace an anatomy exam, but it's not exactly how you ace a history exam. And so we just went full stop on class one day, and I said, look. You're not gonna be historians, and that's okay.

The reason you're worried about this is because you're thinking about it all wrong. I don't care if you don't know what happened in fourteen ninety two. I'll be concerned in different ways, but you can still be successful in this class. You're here to begin to think about a new way to problem solve.

In explicitly saying that, I think, helped make the class successful. And since then, I've taught for I haven't taught in several years, but I've taught for years, and that's how I began every semester is just being really clear about that. Because even in a classroom of really excited, say, history learners, most of them aren't gonna become historians, and that's okay. But we still need to, you know, provide value for the students.

The other example that I have about what is saying it look like is actually the University of Arizona. They have a college of the humanities. And if you visit the college of the humanities website, the first thing you see is a giant banner that literally says, the value of the humanities, exclamation point. And under that, they have a whole bunch of content about the skills and practical benefits that students who kind of go through those doors and pursue a major or even a set of coursework in the humanities, what they can expect to practically get out of it.

They host humanities festivals. They have humanities specific job fairs. And what's cool about that is that in a world where the Chronicle of Education said something like enrollments are down, say sixteen percent across the country in the humanities, in that world, the University of Arizona has actually seen a double digit increase enrollments in in majors. And along with that, they've also seen an increase in major alumni gifts, which they can then use to kind of fund their mission and continue it.

And the reason I like that example is because it shows how everybody in sort of the academic ecosystem, everyone from students to instructors to colleges to alumni, can participate in the act of celebrating the humanities in that when they do, when we do, it's successful.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Because I do think we too often focus on those hard skills. I think Melissa's gonna ask you some questions around AI, but I think that's one of the interesting things about AI recently is this idea that it's driving us to lean into more of those human skills. Right? So, like, again, we're coming back full circle in that discussion, which I love.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean and this is probably gonna be a theme of of this discussion. I feel as though STEM, you as a set of disciplines has done such a amazing job marketing itself, among other things. Right? In the humanities and social sciences, they just have not done that same job yet.

Yeah. Yeah. It's and oh, gosh. So I recently chatted with a dean of a computer science department, clearly a STEM department.

And she was telling me how technology in particular is reshaping their discipline. In fact, she said she's having an existential crisis, actually, because of that. And she talked about how STEM and computer science has done such a good job for so long marketing itself, at least over the last ten, fifteen years, as an essential discipline, and they've attracted all these students. And now here comes along technology, particularly AI in her case, but technology in general that is completely reshaping what she should actually teach in her discipline.

And that's creating this, like, consternation around what does it mean to have this degree, and what does it mean to go out into the workplace? Well, I'm thinking now on the social sciences side or the liberal arts even. Technology is absolutely reshaping it. How do you see tools like AI in this case or big data, digital collaboration, online access to learning, you name it, intersecting with liberal arts education?

And do you see it actually helping fields like my field, history and political science or sociology or even broader liberal arts?

That's a great question. I mean, we're talking about liberal arts generally, but my fluency is best with history. So to start there, history is a discipline that studies the past. So part of the truth of the matter is that they are never going to be the earliest adopters of any technology.

I hadn't adopters of any technology. I had thought about that, but, yeah, that's kind of I could see why I'm But here's what happened.

In March of twenty twenty, every history instructor, and for that matter, every humanities and social science instructor, and for that matter, every instructor, period, was forced to rethink how they can provide excellent in teaching and how students can receive an excellent learning experience without being face to face. And they did it. And they did it through technology. And they did it through collaborative learning platforms like yours.

And it was a moment that there was no going back from. It was a moment where every instructor, even a resistant instructor, was forced to think to themselves, heck, if I just apply a little bit of ingenuity to this, technology can actually make my learning experience better. And I think that has, in important ways, opened up the doors to, even in resistant disciplines, thinking through the practical benefit of technology. Talking about AI specifically, I always think, and the analogy I always come up with is how instructors sort of faced Wikipedia fifteen years ago or so, which is when I started to teach.

And at that time, the starting point, at least among a lot of history instructors, was this kind of posture of wariness That Wikipedia was just this this place that students could visit to get misinformation, or to encourage them to just cheat in new ways. And over time, that changed. Over time, you would see classes and departments host things like hackathons, where students would go into say, a history oriented wiki page and edit it and correct those inaccuracies and improve it, and begin to do some of the actual work history. And you saw other instructors using Wikipedia as a way to have really thoughtful conversations about, sources and evaluating sources, and how you can assess knowledge and how you can decide what constitutes truth.

And that's all using a technology that was scary in a really beneficial way. And with AI, I think it's probably going to go something like that. And I don't know exactly what the outcome is, but I saw this article, which it was in The New Yorker. It was actually it was titled something like, can the humanities survive artificial intelligence?

And it was written by did you have you seen it, Melissa?

I saw it. Yeah.

It's really interesting article.

Princeton professor. It was it was and it kind of talked through his process of how his students kind of thought about AI over time. And what really stuck with me was this point he made at the end, which was that, look, AI may make it easier for students to get the answer quickly, but we're always gonna need humans to ask the questions. Yep. And that was like that was like a real, like, light bulb moment for me. And it strikes me that it is uniquely the job of humanities and social sciences to teach students the skill of learning to ask really good questions. And so if that is the case, then of course, there's going to be a practical use for AI as applied to the humanities and social sciences over time.

Well, the other thing that I think is so interesting is there's also just the ability for AI to help create engaging content. Right? I think there's this gap in content. There's my favorite account on TikTok is a woman called The Culture Muse, and she's actually a she's an educator that works for the American Council for International Studies.

And she does little snippets on obscure historical sites in Rome and Greece, and it's these little microlearning pieces that I am obsessed with. I think it is amazing. And so even in, like, collecting those different technologies and and introducing those elements into courses, that it doesn't just have to be a tome, you know, a tome of reading. We can actually create make a more interactive path.

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. And I'm sure you think about this as often as I do, but digital learning should be able to improve the quality of the learning experience. It's not just offering it in a different way. It's not just because books are so expensive. It's because technology allows it to be, like, measurably better if we let it.

Yeah. Absolutely. I love that.

Ryan, I'm gonna be curious. So you mentioned earlier you're doing your master's. I'm gonna share it's in World War two history. Right?

That's the official okay. I'll be very curious how AI gets infused because you're starting a master's program with AI already being implemented in some institutions. So it'll be really interesting. Because when Joe was talking about Wikipedia, I never thought about that.

That was like the calculator disruptor of history. Yeah. A hundred percent. Right? And we've all sort of lived through these disruptors and adapted.

So, anyway, it'd be really interesting to see this.

It's like, how is it being taught in Canvas? How are the courses designed? What technologies are they using? How are they you know?

I'm so excited about it because it's digging into this in so many different layers. But one of the things that you talk about is system thinking. Right? Looking at the big picture of how disciplines connect, which I think is so funny because we've been talking about them in these very siloed ways up to now.

Especially in time when everything is so siloed, how do we help learners develop this broader lens, that broader viewpoint of of these different specialties?

I mean, I think it is true that there is still a lot of siloing in higher ed and kind of a lot it's not just one ivory tower.

It's sort of a you know, it's it's it's one ivory tower thing.

Really.

Right? But one example that comes to mind is Boston College. And Boston College is a liberal it's a you know, it's a it's an explicitly liberal arts institution just outside of Boston. It's founded on the tradition of Jesuit education.

And so in a lot of ways, it's not the place where you would most expect to see the most innovation or the most forward lookingness in in terms of learning, But it is. Within Boston College, they have a school of business aimed at undergraduates, and it's become successful at attracting majors. But because it's Boston College and rooted in this liberal arts education, they continue to be incredibly thoughtful, and their word in sort of the Jesuit philosophies, discerning. They they continue to be discerning about how a business education can sort of continue to be part of what a liberal arts education looks like.

And what they've done is create a set of courses that business majors have to complete over the course of their time at the college that have this explicit aspect of self reflection in their assessments and their activities that require students to reflect, that ask them to think about how liberal arts like skills may be useful to them in their business lives. Right? Interesting. Yeah.

And on the flip of that, they have also introduced call, classes within their business school that liberal arts students can take that give students explicit exposure to how liberal arts skills and thinking can be practically useful in their professional lives or in their personal lives. And I suspect that there's something about kind of a Jesuit education that makes that cult sort of collaboration easier, but there's no reason why other institutions can't do it. And what I love about it is that it's free. It doesn't take a center.

It doesn't take a major gift. It's something that any institution can just do by walking down the hallway and say, like, let's do this together.

And that yeah. Achieving that goal of a more well rounded student on both sides of that artificial barrier is important. Right.

Yeah. I have a lot of personal concern. Ryan, you and I have talked about this, that if we over index on technical disciplines, what skills are individuals going to miss in developing, especially in college, but even in younger ages, that suddenly we're gonna find ourselves ten, fifteen years from now? And we just we took for granted that some of those skills were inherent in our learning.

And now without being explicit with those skills, we just don't have them as a collection of society. I think a lot of consternation over that. But I think also one of the challenges that liberal arts has had is that it's historically, in a good way for a long time, been centered in a lecture hall. Right?

It's it's a let us get up and tell you stories. I can think of a number of my professors. I went to UCLA for undergraduate, and I can think a number of my classes. I could actually visualize myself and go back to those classes.

And maybe they weren't the most entertaining lectures, but I remember that being my orientation to how I learned in my history class. I remember my I because we're in California, history of California, for example. I remember a bureaucracy class I took in political science, crazy classes.

Now, though, that lecture hall isn't the place where learning happens anymore. And in fact, we flipped the classroom. You talked about, Joe, how in COVID, this changed so dramatically. So what innovations are you seeing around, like, teaching and learning in general? Either it's the pedagogical approaches, assessment, experiential learning? What do you think are helping to make the social sciences both more engaging and I even think more lasting or more impactful with, you know, not just the new technologies, but some of our new practices that we've implemented from a teaching and learning perspective.

So I love that you framed the question about where do you see it? Because because it gives us the opportunity to sort of, I think, pat ourselves on the back a little bit. Right? I think some really, really important places where you see it are in the jobs that you all do and in the jobs that we do.

My guess is that you get up every morning and think about how the heck can we use these platforms that we create to make for a more engaging learning experience for students and an experience with kind of a measurably better educational outcome? Right? Okay. And that's the same sort of stuff that that we do every day, and we do it with our digital platforms, and we also do it with the content that we provide.

It's not to your point, I had a professor in grad yeah, in grad school, and he was a mesmerizing storyteller. You could sit in his class and just be enraptured for hours. But the reality is he probably wasn't sort of he he wasn't applying the very newest in learning science to the class that he was teaching. Right?

So true. But the second part of the answer to your question, I think, is that more and more we do see institutions doing more of that. Right? It is more common to see centers of innovation or centers of teaching excellence where instructors are encouraged to collaborate and take seriously the notion that, hey, you're a great storyteller and students love you, but you could be even more effective in the classroom if you began to apply some principles of learning science to what you do.

I mean, I think that that is becoming increasingly common. If I look around the I mean, there's a lot of higher ed in Boston. And if you look around Boston, I would say about half of the big schools do have kind of formal centers where that sort of work can happen.

So another dimension kind of of that focus on outcomes really is focus on access. Right? Talked a lot about reaching every learner and making sure that we're having those impacts. So from an equity and access standpoint, how do we make sure that liberal arts learning remains accessible to everybody? Diverse learners, nontraditional learners, those first gen learners you talked about earlier. How do make sure that that liberal arts doesn't become kind of a bastion of the the entitled?

That's a great question. You know, I think going back to a minute ago, part of it is the work that we do. Right? The other thing that I always think about is how it's continuing the conversation that we started with the last question.

But when we talk about diversity, when we talk about inclusivity, what we're talking about really from our standpoints are are principles of learning science, our principles of learning design, and that we we want to say think be thoughtful about diversity in the educational materials that we produce because we want students to somehow be able to see themselves in their content. And when they see themselves, they will be in more engaged. And when they are more engaged, they will do better. So part of how what that looks like from where I sit is that at Cengage, every discipline team has embedded in it a formal role of learning designer.

And that learning designer is the person whose job it is to apply some measure of subject matter expertise and some expertise in learning science as well to make sure that, say, in history, we're not just telling great engaging stories, but that we are using those stories to do as part of a bigger project. Right? As as part of actually making sure that our students are without even knowing it, and perhaps even without instructors knowing it, are that our students are engaging in educational content that is designed to lead them to better educational outcomes.

Yeah. Think something you just said, I do too, is so critical. We're talking a lot about the future of liberal arts or social sciences education, but hearing a little bit about your process at ZoomGauge is really important. Because I'm hearing constantly, okay.

AI is distracting content creation. But content creation just isn't creating the stories. It's doing exactly what you just said. It's learning design.

And I'm sitting in this conference this week. I'm traveling, and and we talked a lot about this approach to hybrid learning and not hybrid learning as we know it from a teaching and learning perspective, but how are we bringing AI and the human together to actually create something that's more powerful or more than a sum of its two parts? And I think what you just described about that learning designer content piece is part of that and really important for us all to remember. It was an just as you said that, it like, oh, yeah.

We have to think about this and that content creation is not getting replaced by technology. It is getting enhanced, improved.

And even in disciplines where you think, oh, I can just go get the answers and use technology to get those, it's different and it's important. And this leads me to my next question for you, which is what do you see as some of the biggest obstacles for social sciences or liberal arts educations over the next day decade? What's the hill we have to climb? Because I'm gonna put both Ryan and I in in your world because we are all history lovers and social science lovers. What's the hill we have to climb over the next decade?

I think that for a long time, the value of higher education was sort of inherent, I think was the word that you used. It was it was it never needed to be really spoken out loud. It never needed to be articulated. And I think that that has also been true of the humanities and social sciences.

I think that many instructors would like to believe that the value of studying their discipline is this kind of is at least in large part this sort of vague sort of self betterment. Right? And I think the biggest obstacle is that humanities and social sciences need to, not from a defensive place, but from a proud place, be willing to say loud and clear, this is why you need to come to us. This is what we can do for you.

These are the skills beyond the memorization of names and dates and places that you can walk away with that will make your life better professionally and personally in explicit, specific, and measurable ways. That's sort of I think that's the challenge that these disciplines need to rise to and will rise to certainly, but they still need to rise to.

Okay. We know we're at a crisis in education, and liberal arts degrees are being challenged, or at least they're not the sexy place to spend your time as university, leaders and policymakers. But given this conversation, you know, I think our listeners will walk away and say, oh, no. We really actually need to be understanding the value, and we need to be growing this. So so what should we do?

And, like, what should our institutional listeners think about as they're trying to move forward new approaches or adopt some of the stories like your Boston College story or your University of Arizona Yeah.

So I guess part of the answer to the question then is and thank you. It's a great question. Part of the answer to the question is that is to go back to the University of Arizona example and not just point out that this can be done, but also point out that when we do it, it works.

So do we need to pull data in? It's not an easy answer, which is one of the reasons that we're kind of going back and forth on it. But, like, do we have to show it with data? Do we have to show the actual impact?

You know, it's easy to point to this many CEOs graduated from liberal arts programs. Right? Like but that may take a while to get data around, things like that. You know?

I think that's partly true. I also think that we have to internally we internally being kind of academia internally needs to be willing to change the conversation a little bit. Like, if if you Google just the word humanities into the search box at the Chronicle of Higher Ed, what you get is a set of news about how it's a crisis. But maybe that's just not a useful conversation to have.

Maybe as much as we would hate to do it, it's as simple as at least partly taking a page out of the STEM playbook in as you just said, Ryan. Yeah. Putting metrics to prove the success, to prove the point that there is value. And then beyond that, you know, as I said earlier, I think I think that every humanities and social sciences instructor should look at themselves and think to themselves, oh, heck.

I am not standing in front of a class, all of whom are going to become professional discipline Xers. Right? And if that's the case, I owe it to them to be more thoughtful myself about why they are here and what they can get from that class. And that's a big change.

It's gonna take time. But I think it'll happen. The alternative is that, you know, the sort of anecdotes that we hear are gonna become actual trend lines, and that is falling enrollments leading to decreased department funding, which leads to kind of a constriction of what courses they can offer, or even some departments not being funded at all anymore. And I would it doesn't need to come to that crisis point, I I think.

It just needs to be a willingness to think differently about about what we do in the first place. Yeah.

Well, I'll even add to that too. I think there needs to be a willingness to how do we wrap around the humanities or the liberal arts student outside of the classroom too. So so I think this is where, in my experience, career centers have fallen down. Or, again, you know, the data aggregation institutions or that marketing piece.

We just haven't wrapped around it like the STEM disciplines have to help students understand how their job how their work gets them direct jobs. We're missing that piece as well. And so then you can fight the parents of, like, you're gonna go get an English degree. What are you gonna do with that?

Right? You still hear that to this day, you still hear those stories. And yet I have to find the source, but social science degrees are like, when you track that to if we wanna use a moniker of, you know, you're a CEO of a company, there are more liberal arts degrees than any sort of individual technology or discipline hard skill type degree that has led to CEOs jobs around the world. Like, humanities and social sciences do that, and there's a lot of data points towards that.

But you just don't see it explicitly, I think. And that's where perhaps we can we can give liberal arts students hugs more broadly in their learning.

Melissa knows my brain always goes to movie quotes, but I'm like, it's the I am Spartacus moment. Like, I am a humanity. You know, I was a communication major. Right?

I was an English major. I was a like, there's so many of us in really, like, thriving roles that came from a liberal arts background. We need to celebrate that more instead of instead of acting like that is not the path, you know, that we've all taken. So, yeah, I love that.

I have one last question for you, Joe, and it's back to something you and I, when we chatted the very first time, chatted about. Do you worry about a world with less liberal arts education? Where do you sit on that?

Yeah. I do worry about that because I love it. And I think that it is first of all, I think it's fun. Second of all, I think I'm not messing around when I say that they're softer skills, but they are real and specific skills that you can build from a liberal arts edge that you can gain from a liberal arts education that you take with you.

And once you realize that, it's not an accident or it's not surprising to see the statistic that you just mentioned, Melissa, about corporate leaders kind of leaning toward liberal arts educations. It makes perfect sense that kind of look only inward. They're disciplines that that have really useful and practical things to offer students of them. And while I worry about kind of the world that you just described, I'm also very hopeful that we're gonna avoid it.

Yeah. I love it.

You know, there's that the conversation around the introduction of AI and that leading to more, focus on human skills. I really do think we're gonna see this pendulum swing. And I think that that idea that we really need to focus on communication and empathy and these things that make us powerful as humans as opposed to the things that make us great, you know, data deliverers like AI can do is important.

Well, if anything that you've said, Joe, and maybe you'll finish on this, is that reflection piece. There is a reflection piece that comes with the liberal arts that I think we often miss. And if we don't reflect on who we are and how we are as learners, I have a lot of concern about that too for our own individual growth as humans.

Yeah. That's right. And you pointed out something a minute or two ago about how there are institutional aspects of higher ed that are are maybe behind, that haven't caught up with what students need right now. And maybe in the short term, that's okay because maybe the it's not great, but maybe it's okay because the the pace of change is so fast right now that part of the hope we can have is that we have time to catch up.

Yep. Totally agree. I love that. I love that. And on that note, thank you, Joe, so much for being here, sharing your insights. Clearly, you are among passionate people around liberal arts, humanities, education. We'll be tracking.

Maybe we'll have you back after Ryan's been in his program for a year, and we can we can nerd out about World War two history and the experience of it.

But thank you so much for being here with today. It's been just such a joy.

Yeah. Thank you so I've had an absolute blast, and I've enjoyed this conversation a ton.

Thanks, Joe.

Thanks. We will include a couple links, including that New Yorker article that both of us read. That was a really good article, and then we'll include some other links in the show notes. So just some references and and ideas for those of you listening that wanna kinda lean in more to this. So thanks everyone for listening to the Educast three thousand.

Thanks, everybody.

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