Rise of COLOs

Welcome to Educast three thousand. It's the most transformative time in the history of education.


So join us as we break down the fourth wall and reflect on what's happening, the good, the bad, and even the chaotic. Here's your hosts, Melissa Lobel and Ryan Lufkin.


Hello, and welcome to another episode of Educast three thousand. I'm your cohost, Ryan Lufkin.


And I'm your other cohost, Melissa Lobel. And we are joined today by not just one, but two pretty incredible guests. They actually are both longtime colleagues and friends of both Ryan and I, and they had some big announcements to share on this podcast, and we're very excited to have them both here. So please welcome first, doctor Thomas Cavanaugh, vice provost for online learning at the University of Central Florida, and doctor Jocelyn Widmer, dean for weapons learning transformation at Los Alamos National Laboratory.


Thank you both for being here. You are eduilebrities in this space.


And, again, deep colleagues, deep friends, and we can't wait to lean in with you.


Thank you so much for having us.


Yeah. We really appreciate it. Thank you.


Yeah. You probably already see one of the announcements if you're watching this on video because I know quite a few people will watch this on video behind Jocelyn. So part of this conversation is not gonna just be about picking their brains to the world of online learning, but also a little bit about a book they're releasing.


Yeah. And so, Jocelyn, we'll actually start with you. I've already told you I think you have the coolest title of anyone I know. But give us a little bit about your background for our audience.


Sure. I'm actually trained in the design field. So I started my academic journey in colleges of architecture. So I've been on faculty at Virginia Tech and University of Florida and kind of had two career trajectories as a faculty member, but then also teaching online and kind of rose the ranks through administration, and then was the chief online learning officer at Texas A and M University where I got the chance to meet both of you all. I should say I followed Tom before that. I was definitely a fangirl of Tom's, portion of the university.


And then since have transitioned somewhat outside of higher ed to Los Alamos Medical Laboratory, kind of the other side of the coin, I would say.


Still very much doing digital learning and thinking hard about what classified learning management looks like.


That's awesome. And, Tom, you were actually one of the first guests we ever had on the Educast three thousand podcast, so welcome back. But for those listeners who actually maybe haven't watched that episode, give us a little bit about your background as well. Well.


Sure. So, yeah, sixteen years at the University of Central Florida. I'm responsible for online blended and digital stuff, continuing ed. Before that worked at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University and then had a career kind of spanning corporate training and kind of the public private partnership space.


Some of it was literally space because I was on-site at Kennedy Space Center for five years, which was fun.


Very cool. Yeah.


And I started my career in film and television.


My first job out of college was driving Mouseketeers from the their apartments to the studios here in Florida back in the nineties when the new Mickey Mouse Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake era.


Everybody asks me that. Do you know Britney?


And actually, I don't know Britney. I know a bunch of the other kids, the original kids, though, but I actually left after the first year and a half before all the super famous ones came in. And I I moved to Nickelodeon, and I wrote a bunch of shows for Nickelodeon at that time. But, yeah, I'm actually still in touch with some of those kids, some of the Mouseketeers on social media.


Yeah. The Nickelodeon. That was such a formative growing up. You know? This watching people get covered in slime and things like that.


Responsible for some of that.


Oh my. Oh my gosh. There's so many questions to ask.


That's a different podcast. That's a totally different podcast.


I love, though, the creative origins. I mean, both of you, while you have really distinguished careers in online learning, have had other interesting creative pursuits early in in your careers, which is just super cool, which leads me to Tom, I'm gonna stick with you. You know this drill, but we're gonna ask again, which is a favorite learning moment. And given your diverse background, and it can be something that was you as a learner. It could be you teaching someone else. It could be you observing something, something that's you've seen in your current institution.


No specific rules other than a favorite learning moment in your life.


Yeah. Wow. And I'm I don't remember what I said last time, so I don't wanna repeat myself. So I'll pick something I know I haven't talked about because it's something that just happened to me over the weekend.


So it's new, but it's on my new list of favorites. I was at a some of you may know I have a hobby of writing mystery novels, and I was at a conference over the weekend of mystery writers. And a well known author was speaking and gave a talk on just craft. It's probably the it was like a master class in just an hour.


It was one of the best sessions I had ever attended on just how to write a thriller. It was just really, really good. And, yeah, it was it was very inspiring.


What about it? Can I ask, like, what made you because you not only do you present all the time, but you probably attend so many conferences?


And for something to stand out either from a professional or personal hobby perspective is pretty significant. Was there something about that talk that resonated with you?


Or Well, he spoke from just such a position of both authority and humility in the same kind of, like, two sides of that coin.


And he shared a lot of like examples from other authors. He wasn't picking his own work. He had Joyce Carol Oates, and he had Stephen King. And he'd like all of these different example.


They weren't even all thriller writers, but it was just really good. And then, of course, it was just very practical. It was like stuff that you can use. And it was just, I thought, very effectively done.


So much was covered in an hour. I could have sat there all day.


That's cool. That's very cool. Jocelyn, how about you? A favorite learning moment could be recent like Tom's, could be something from your past, but would you mind sharing one with us, please?


Yeah. So many to choose from. I was thinking about this earlier today. Definitely don't have one as poignant probably as Tom's most recent example.


But I think all of mine are typically involve a student and something I've learned from a student. And so a little bit of a, like, a one two story with a student many years ago. I like to take students out to dinner, and that's where I felt like I really learned the most about what their experience was or they were struggling. And so I asked them one night, what was their sequence of, you know, how do they check their communications?


And I meant, like, their entire lives. Like, text messages at the time, I think it was Facebook and, you know, whatever was popular at the time. And I was really shocked to learn that their Canvas messages was second on the list at the time. And this was probably, like, twelve years ago or something. I mean, it was a while ago. So that's always stuck with me as I've tried to make the case for why, you know, why communication matters and why a holistic experience matters.


And then fast forward to maybe a year and a half ago, and I was on my way out from the higher ed setting, and students were just kind of taking on to AI and using it on their own. And so I asked a student about their experience and kind of I asked that question over and over again to see how it changes over time. And it was so interesting. And I'm and Brian, I'm gonna hit the article that you just posted.


I think it was on Friday. The the title was no teach without tech, I think was the name of the article. And the student said to me I mean, they were talking about how they're integrating AI as as study buddies and all of these interesting things that are a little more mainstream today. And she said, an instructor's way they set up their course shell in LMS is the single most determinant of my success in that course or in a course.


And I was just blown away that students, you know, they see that as so critical to their success, and and you should just said it incredibly elegantly and didn't skip a beat when I asked the question. So I just kind of always come back to the power of these digital tools no matter what the modality is and have learned that over and over again from students.


I love that you're able to kind of ask that question over time too and see how it evolves. It's amazing.


I agree. And I don't think we ask students enough, so I love that you do regularly ask students. What are their thoughts, what impacts them, what do they use the most. I think we can all spend across the space more time walking in our students' shoes.


This kind of leads me to why we're here, which is to really get excited about the new book that you two have coauthored. And as of listening to this, will have been launched, which is really exciting. It's called the Chief Online Learner's Guidebook. So, Jocelyn, I'll start with you.


Where did this idea come from? What's the premise of the book? Why?


So it started probably in twenty twenty one. We were still amidst COVID, but, you know, trying to put together a strategy and really more fundamentally an org chart. So I was in search of the perfect org chart as as I have said. And I was, you know, just trying it was kind of like we were able to travel for the first time in eighteen months or so. And so going to conferences, meeting people out and about, and I was trying to just have a cup of coffee or have a conversation with just colas that I had had the great fortune of meeting via, during COVID and just had been so gracious with their time. And actually, Tom definitely was one of the first of those. And so, you know, it was just I asked a series of questions, probably like six or seven questions, but, you know, really looking at strategy and organizational structure.


What was in the portfolio? What wasn't in the portfolio? What should be? What shouldn't be?


You know, just consistently asking. And then the one question I asked at the end, which perhaps we'll talk about is and it always it always made me so, you know, in the moment just defeated. I asked kind of what's next for COLOs in terms of their career, which I do think is an important piece of this book. And didn't get really great answers.


I think it was a a manifestation of the moment we were in that we had time to really career plan, but research that's been done since then, I think, shows that there's not a great career trajectory for colos in terms of how we think about what's next. But, you know, just kind of put those interviews together, gave a presentation for our group at UPCEA that Tom was chairing at the time, the council for chief online learning officers.


And Tom pinged me afterwards and was like, have you thought about writing a book? And I I was an English major, so of course, it's like a dream to write a book, but I never thought I had anything amassed enough to say on any one thing. And I actually used to keep tabs on the most crazy things that my online students would send to me as a as a PhD student. So I have somewhere in his title that's, like, his title, like, ridiculous.


That's a good one. I would actually read those. That'd be awesome.


Yeah. I was always thinking that would be my first book. But here we are, a little more serious. And so Tom was really the catalyst in encouraging me, and I didn't think I could do it by myself. And I know Tom has wonderful experience writing fiction novels. So I knew he would be the perfect partner, not only from his experience, but he's truly he was a mentor of mine and a friend of mine and and a colleague. So it's been a great partnership.


Well, and Melissa and I have known you guys were working on this for some time, and so it's exciting to see it come to fruition. So congratulations. But, Tom, go ahead and walk us through some of the major themes of the book.


Yeah. Happy to. And if you'll allow me just one indulgence, let me give the full title because there's a subtitle and everything. So it's the Yes.


Chief Online Learning Officer's Guidebook, A Framework for Strategy and Practice in Higher Education, and it's being published by Rutledge Taylor and Francis Group. So, yeah, there are several themes, and I would say there's some overarching themes and it has a lot to do with the audiences we're trying to serve. So one would be sitting colos, you know, chief online learning officers. So how do you do the job well?


What are the competencies? And it's based on kind of the spine of the center part of the book is grounded in the eight competencies of PCO leaders from UPCEA. And so that gave us a kind of a place to kind of hang all of the learnings that Jocelyn had through all of these conversations against kind of an established framework. But another audience is aspiring colos.


So for those who are in the pipeline who wanna be a chief online learning officer, what are the competencies and skills? What do they need to know? What are the things that they should be aware of identifying their own gaps and then developing their own sort of professional development to fill those gaps? And then maybe a tertiary audience would be presidents and provosts and the people that these people report to.


So they better understand the position, the people that are hiring these people and writing the job descriptions, because there is some variation around there. And sometimes Jocelyn has described this based on her own observations that they seem to be really looking for a unicorn in some cases.


Like, you know, are you going to find that person? And so the book is about half of it. Half of each chapter was authored by Jocelyn and I. And then the other half are short, practical contributions by expert perspectives, including someone named Melissa Lobel. We appreciate your contribution to the book.


Thank you for having me.


Yeah, absolutely. And so it's I mean, I think it's a really nice balance between the perspectives that we have from kinda looking across the space, especially tied to these competencies, but then grounded in practice by these practitioners that are doing the job. And then their essays, which are short, are tied to that chapter thematically. And maybe the last thing I'll say is that we've kind of divided the book into three broad sections.


So the first section is what we call the colo context. It's like, what is a colo? What's the profile? The first ninety days, like, if you're walking into this job, what can you expect?


And then because so much of this is being driven by a post COVID kind of reaction, a lot of these jobs are now being recognized by institutions as necessary as they realize they need an online learning strategy.


Competencies, what the competencies, what we call strategy overlays for colos. And then the last section, the last four chapters are distinguishing next gen leaders. So what's the future look like? And we even have a section. This is, I believe, where you contributed, Melissa. Also careers outside of higher ed kind of working in the commercial space or in the nonprofit space or some of those other things. Yeah.


That's awesome. What, exciting and I think really meaningful subject areas and very comprehensive if we think about what chief online learning officers both need to be thinking about the skills and the competencies, but then also how they manage their own careers. I love that. And I think all of the audiences you described, spot on.


I would think there's another audience too that I think will will really appreciate the work that you both have done, which is the vendors in the technology space, the online vendors. Because really understanding the practices, the needs, the approaches and strategies by these leaders is incredibly important to us because as technology providers, we're serving you all. So so I do think you have another audience as well in all of this, but but I love the topics and I love the richness and the depth. Maybe share a little bit about how best you know, how do you see individuals leveraging this work in their own practice?


Like, are they is this for guidance as a colo? Is this for you're bringing it into your institution to sort of help more broadly individuals understand what's needed from a strategy? Can this be used in that way? Can this be used to start to help transform change in institutions?


Maybe share a little bit about that, Tom.


Sure. But then I'll let Jocelyn jump in soon enough. But yeah. Absolutely. I think I mean, a lot of the things that we talk about in here are things that I think can be directly applied to the job immediately.


So like we talk about governance and we talk about how to work with your CIO and we talk about like, you know, just all kinds of we even touch on budget model. It's not about budgeting, but we talk about you need to know what they are and how to work with them. So some of it is very practical that can be applied right away. But it's also every so often we kind of pull the lens back and you kind of get a look at the landscape.


And so the idea is to try to try to walk that line. Would you agree, Jocelyn?


Yeah. One other piece that I would add is and Bob Hanson, the president of UPCEA. UPCEA has endorsed the book and he wrote the foreword. And he talks about the decade of the colo. And so one of the pieces that I do think is really important about this book is it's a moment in time. We've collected fifty I think almost fifty five expert contributions from a swath of sitting colos.


Some have retired since we've got the book out. We've got CAOs, we've got university presidents, we've got individuals like yourself, all the major professional organizations are represented. And it's just this wonderful robust moment in time where we have this incredible collection of characters who have contributed. So I think, my hope for kind of the staying power of this book is that there are some really heavy hitters and just some premier thought leaders who have given rise to the role and who will forever have their mark on the role, even as the role continues to evolve, which I think we're probably seeing with AI right now. There's a lot of probably, like, self help in this.


Love it. I had moments where I was thinking, you know, if this were on my shelf, would I pick it off the shelf to read a chapter or a section or hear what some particular polo at a peer institution you know, where the individual is coming into the role or who our audience is. Another thing, you know, just kind of in the weeds that I think is really important with the role is we got some great perspective and we laid out some of the differences between someone coming up through an academic like faculty trajectory versus someone coming up through a staff trajectory.


And there's no one way to become a COLO. So we try to cast the net pretty broadly because as we look to this next gen of colos, I think we're gonna see, you know, maybe we'll start to see some more trends and patterns, but perhaps we'll see even more varied routes to the destination.


Can I make a comment on that?


Because I think that that is really a great point. And maybe like a sub theme of the book is a comparison of the colo to the CIO.


So if we go back thirty years, maybe not every institution had a CIO. But now it's almost unthinkable that an institution wouldn't have a CIO.


And we propose that the chief online learning officers, perhaps on a similar, maybe not the same, but a similar trajectory, that if there's one thing COVID revealed is that you better have an online strategy for your institution.


And a lot of institutions have realized that, which is why you've seen sort of proliferation of a lot of these leadership roles recently, which was part of the inspiration for the book. There are lessons to be learned from the CIO experience over the past thirty years or so. And as Jocelyn said, Bob Hanson kind of called what were the twenty twenty to twenty thirty time frame, basically COVID launching the decade of the colo.


Yeah. And you both worked in the colo role. You both hold that position. But as you were talking to this kind of bright, like, wide segment of people in this audience, are there any ideas or insights that surprised you based I mean, I don't know anybody else that surveyed that many experts in the space. Jocelyn, any anything that stands out there?


Well, I think the first was just how willing people were to contribute to this. I mean, that's this wouldn't exist without this really broad willingness. And, I mean, I think with the exception of just a very small handful of people whose bandwidth was beyond full, we just got these emphatic yes, we'll all participate.


So that's been really cool.


I would say, almost in every chapter, we went through this process and maybe we'd do it all over again differently. Maybe we'd do it the same. But we had the chapter or the section outlines as Tom went through and then the chapter outlines.


And then we kind of did this matching to try to get robust representation across a whole bunch of different domains. And then people we knew who had, you know, just tremendous expertise or experience, who could have something very interesting to say on any one of these topics. And then we were also thinking about, you know, there's a little bit of matchmaking in the three to five individuals who contributed per chapter.


So I think by and large, we just hit this wonderful harmony in the contributions too. I mean, there wasn't anybody's who really stuck out. I think we moved one person, and I think he asked to be moved. I mean, his contribution could have made sense. John O'Brien. I think we had him in the CIO chapter, and his, contribution actually made sense in the getting a seat at the table chapter.


So it was just really neat how it all came together and how everybody really had something to say across probably all of these topics, but the way that the organization laid out, you know, it just it really worked. But through that structure, the common thread was relationships and networking.


And I think that's an important piece. We don't know each other without that, obviously.


But that's been such an important piece of my journey through this and especially during COVID, and that's how Tom and I came to know each other. I was looking for somebody who understood scale, and there isn't anybody who understands scale like Tom does. And so hopefully that piece is just front and center for them to aspire to be a colo because I think it is gonna be harder to filter and file into these roles moving forward because there's they're more popular, maybe there's more of them, but I think people in leadership roles will have a better sense of what who should be in these roles, so there's gonna be some competition.


So I think every single person kind of had their own wisdom or experience or lesson to share on how important networking and relationships were.


I love that that networking relationships piece surfaced in all of that as you talk about. I think, you know, we are a small space to a certain degree in education, but a growing one as new and different types of people come in and take leadership roles like this. And and, Tom, you already talked a little bit about why now for the book, the timing around the book. What do you, you know, you maybe a little prediction. Do you see ten years from now, basically, every major higher education institution having the COLO? Do you how do you see this rise of the role? And even globally, do you see this occurring as well?


Yeah. I mean, I'd we don't make any sort of bold predictions in the book. Yeah. But we do posit that as a premise that that is possible. And it's certainly the recent trends support that.


So I would say, yeah, ten years from now, unless your institution is very intentional about not wanting an online strategy, and that could be for any number of reasons. Maybe you're a seminary or you're a service academy or something that you there's a reason or you just you're totally bought into. This is all about the liberal arts on campus coming of age experience, whatever it is. But even so, they're gonna be digital tools that are gonna be part of that experience, even if it's not fully online.


It just may not be at the scale, as Jocelyn said, that some other institutions might have. So I do think that there will be a growing role that becomes more ubiquitous as time goes on. But also, as Jocelyn said, it's yes, it's analogous to a CIO, but it's different because as we said, there are all kinds of different paths. And if you talk to all the different colos, if you look at if you read the fifty four people we have contributing, I don't know, probably three quarters of them are sitting colos and the others are like university or association presidents and stuff.


And their paths into the colo seat are all different.


Some were instructional designers, some were faculty, some were student advising people. Like, it's all kinds of different paths in, which is why the competencies really help Cause you can look at those and say, I'm good in these five, but these two I need help with or something. And you can kind of craft your own professional development plan to aspire in into a role like that. And also as opposed to like a chief academic officer who a lot of colos report to, If you talk about that, you'd kinda know what the competencies are.


You know what the career path has been. You know, they became an assistant professor, an associate professor, department chair, dean. Now they're a provost or something. You have that all in your head.


For colo, it's completely different. They don't even have a consistent title. We're calling them colos. I serve functionally as that at UCF.


I don't have that title. So everybody's got kind of a different title, even if the function is the same. So there's some differences. And we're still, I think, navigating that in this decade of the Colo.


Yeah. So were there specific skills that stood out as most important?


Oh, I see. And Jocelyn naughty.


Jocelyn's nodding. Jocelyn's nodding. Jocelyn?


We have a chapter. I mean, as Tom mentioned, the book is framed around UPCEA's eight competencies, and we've got a chapter, chapter ten, I think, is about the pipeline and ensuring we get those skills and competencies in the next generation.


So I would say there were three or four that really came to light in that chapter, and the expert contributors all had really interesting things to say about those. These kind of dimensions.


I'm not sure if you would specifically call them skills at this point, but certainly in AI literacy, which I'm sure everybody has those now or I mean, I you'd be surprised.


Honestly, it's one of those it's a spectrum, really, though.


And and I do think I mean, for another podcast episode, I think Tom and I have some divergent thinking on the role as AI comes into play. Like, what is the relationship between the colo and the chief AI officer, for instance? Are they nested or are they parallel or just one Perfect. One usurp the others?


We've had some interesting conversation on that.


I'll sort of add.


I want to have that conversation with you too at some point. We're gonna we're gonna do a follow-up on that.


So AI AI literacy and the futures literacy, which was a big kind of theme that emerged in that pipe in that chapter on pipelines.


And then trust, which is something that I surprisingly, you know, I I wish we would have hit on that probably more throughout the book, but I'm glad we got to shine a light on that in this particular chapter. And then, leadership development. So Tom has had some, I think, really great commentary around what's the distinction between up CSA competencies and just, you know, good leadership and good leadership competencies.


So we try I think we do distinguish some of the unique characteristics of a colo in this book. But, you know, you could step back and see that these are all just really good leadership skills and competencies.


So I think that chapter ten that really looks to the future in the pipeline is one where we're able to look around the corner and see what's next.


So, you know, I'll be interested to see how these competencies evolve and get updated. I think Upstate is in process of doing that. But a lot of them, I think, have been informed by this post COVID world and certainly AI.


And if we had to look sort of at areas that we maybe didn't have time or space to explore, we mentioned AI more than once. But the book's not about AI, right? We just sort of touch on it as you better be paying attention to it kind of going forward.


You know, I've I've got an AI book that Melissa brought me from a conference, and I'm like, once you put that on paper, especially with something that's evolving that quickly, it's very quickly out of date. Right? And so talking more about the the need to be aware of that and embracing emerging technologies is important.


So I like your Another area that came up that we talked about early on and we got some feedback from the contributors, but it just turned out we just didn't have space was the international side of things.


So this book is very sort of American centric.


And there's a lot going on internationally, as you both know, because I send you LinkedIn posts from all over the world in this digital learning space that we just didn't have the kind of bandwidth or space in the book to explore. But it would be interesting. And frankly, I personally don't have the context to kind of we would have to do more open solicitation of contributors than we did for this one instead of the more kinda invitation that we did.


Well, it's difficult because of the regionally specific regulation, you know, the different challenges by very specific to region, things like that. It would be hard to kind of cast a holistic net over the whole globe. You'd really have to dive in by region.


Yeah. Or even lean in again into the skills. I think that there are just you know, how do you understand the context in which you are driving online learning strategies. Right?


And that would be where the regional Navigate those differences might be.


How do you navigate this? Yeah.


Country. Yeah.


Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the next look. I can see this. I can see this happening.


One thing I'll add about the skills, and this was the chapter that you contributed to, Melissa. I think it was it's called other duties as assigned. So it's life outside the academy.


And we got some wonderful contributions from yourself, Jen Stringer, who's at the Getty. So just really neat chapter. And myself having stepped out of higher ed, I do think there's a very valuable transferability of skills that you articulate, especially in the chapter, and then we try to frame in that chapter because we are seeing colos take, you know, interesting leaps outside of academia or a little bit adjacent to academia.


So we that chapter talks about the workforce trends and how Kola's understanding of workforce data is, you know, a really valuable insight as you step into, say, the corporate side, upskilling around AI. You know, how do you beat the drum in terms of change? That's something that is very transferable. And then, you know, just being able to look to the future and understand the workforce today, which that comes from an understanding of our online students, I would say, or students more more generally today.


So lots of interesting comparisons to glean in that last chapter.


Yeah. I love that you have thought about that. That was a question I was gonna ask you was around how does what you've uncovered translate into maybe a a non higher education or not just education in general setting. You shared a little bit about that. You know, I can see some pretty significant opportunity where the skills that you're talking about in the book are really important for, I even think, HR teams in corporations.


So often you run into people without the kind of real understanding of how to create an online learning strategy for their own employees or workplace. And so I just I see lots of opportunities there. As you did the work, maybe I'll start with you, Jocelyn, what were some of the biggest challenges that you saw that colos were facing today?


Probably positionality.


So it comes back to titles and seat at the table or not. We have a whole chapter framed around a seat at the table. And if you don't have a seat at the table, then how how do you get one and or at least how do you get your ideas there and get a champion who is sitting at the table. And that's that kind of academic sin suite.


So that's a significant challenge. I think the change in higher ed leadership is also challenging. I mean, we see that all the time with colos who had solid footing under one leader's vision and several leaders removed that vision has become diluted or state politics have changed or whatever it may be. So that's something I think we at some point, I need to to do the count, but we have, like I said, fifty four, fifty five expert contributors, and a significant number have switched roles or retired since Wow.


We'll have published the book. And, you know, that's for all different reasons. And so I think it is important to acknowledge that the colo role is not yet, I think, established in a lot of institutions and there still is some justification that needs to be made. And then there are a lot of colos who are, who are looking at what growth looks like or, you know, career advancement looks like in that role. And so at least side conversations have been a lot about that. And, you know, those, that commentary wove its way a little bit into some of the expert contributions we received.


We yeah. We didn't spend a lot of time talking about that, but I do think that it's an interesting maybe follow on conversation, sort of like what's next for the colo? Because is it a terminal position? And in a lot of cases, like the CIO, if we're using that as a comparison, has become a terminal position with a few exceptions.


So, for example, there are a couple of people who've moved from a colo role into presidencies, one of whom is the contributor to the book. Actually, two are contributors to the book, and that's still an exception. We know some that have moved into provost roles. I know probably three or four that have moved into, like, VP of enrollment management roles. And so it's like you could take these to kind of touch again on what Jocelyn said. You could take these leadership skills and point them up in a couple of different directions, which in some ways, I think makes the colo a better launching pad more flexible than even a CIO potentially.


Yeah. That's a really interesting there's an something very similar in the corporate space. We're starting to see the rise of chief customer officers, and so there's you definitely see that in a tech, and they're just now starting to path into CEO roles. Whereas for a long time, that was also thought as as terminal. And I I think the way you've described this, the skill set is so valuable in those senior leadership roles. I love to see that that that the colo is is those core skills become that much even more important as somebody rises in the organization.


That's inspiring particularly because I kind of consider myself a colo, but in a unique setting. So I love seeing that. I'm curious. You did a little prediction there, Tom.


I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap up with a a final question for both of you. But I'll start with you, Tom. Where is online learning going, I'll say broadly, in three to five years? And and where is, like, Colo's role in that going in the next three to five years?


Yeah, it's interesting because I'm kind of a little schizophrenic on it. So in general, it's like if you read the Chloe reports and we've got all the Chloe people who have contributed to the book. And so it's a great addition. So the Chloe data show that it's growing still.


Right? More people are doing online learning and as a percentage of the whole and maybe even slightly growing the pie where other places it's actually dipping. So I think at the macro scale, it's still growing and there's still gonna be demand for leadership in this space to help institutions determine strategy. But at the same time, when you look at like a school like mine, which is large and we do have a scaled online learning operation, I would say over the last year, it feels like we started to plateau a little.


Now that's barring any new investment to try to actually grow the pie. But for a long time, a lot of our digital growth has been by seeing behavior of students who are on campus and taking more and more online credit hours. That seems to be what's plateauing. I'm not talking about growing new students who are, like, nontraditional, who are looking for it because I think there's millions and millions of those still to be served.


But the more traditional student who's looking for online options The flexibility of online course Yeah.


At least here, it feels like at a Yeah. At about sixty to sixty five percent credit hours. I'm I'm just wondering, have we reached a stasis point? Or is it just an anomaly and then it'll continue growing at two to three percent a year like it's always grown? I just I don't know. It's an interesting moment where I've noticed this flattening for a year.


Interesting. How about you, Jocelyn? Where do you see the next three to five years taking us?


Yeah. I'm sort of on the sidelines or at least in the comfort of the armchair at this point on this. But I do have the ability to have some conversations with all sorts of leadership at different institutions and with individuals like yourself. So it's given me somewhat of a, like, more macro perspective on this. So I think two things. And the first is one that kinda coming off of what Tom is saying, I think we still don't have robust digital strategies at institutions, digital learning strategies comprehensively.


And that was something that we saw so many institutions who just struggled during COVID and kind of piecemealed it together. The infrastructure, the skills, the talent needed to sustain that. So I think that's gonna continue to, like, firm it in institutions, large and small, and everything in between.


But I also think I think the integration of AI is going to change the game some. And I was talking with the university president a couple weeks ago and, you know, just listening to her thought process in hiring an AI strategist.


And I think this is my prediction as this is gonna become the norm. Is you see these individual and this is where I think the colo didn't get a fair run of things because COVID was so demanding on the colos. Because I think the colos could have played this role. I think the chief or the AI strategist, chief AI officer is going to integrate into the business side of higher ed and, you know, the academic side and, you know, all facets.


Whereas the Chief Online Learning Officer is pretty squarely on the academic front. So I worry about the polo because of that. And I, I can see how an institution is strapped for resources is gonna put more emphasis on the AI piece because of the efficiencies and potential cost savings, etcetera, etcetera. I think the Coldwell could have done all of those things and more and understands the framework in which they're working probably more than some of those who are being pegged for these AI strategist roles. So I think time will tell.


Yeah.


Generic, like, throwing my hands up answer, but I think it'll be, you know, interesting to see. But I I think the COLO is going to have to continue to make the case and bring that student experience to the front and demonstrate the value in ways that I I don't think what will replace the COLO has at their fingertips.


Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I we already have, like, two other podcast follow ups that we Yes. We do. There.


So so excited for the book. Thank you, guys. Congratulations on publishing this. I'm so excited for both of you, and and thanks for joining us on the podcast today.


Thank you. Really appreciate it.


Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.


We'll have links to the book in the show notes. So if you listen to this, make sure to follow-up with the show notes as well as a couple of other resources that were mentioned, and thank you again.


Thanks for listening to this episode of Educast three thousand. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and drop us a review on your favorite podcast player so you don't miss an episode. If you have a topic you'd like us to explore more, please email us at InstructureCast at Instructure dot com, or you can drop us a line on any of the socials. You can find more contact info in the show notes. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Educast three thousand.