Beyond the Canvas: Jen Walsh

Hi, I'm Gems and welcome to Beyond the Canvas. I'm the regional director for K-12 here at APAC and today, I am joined with Jen. But at Beyond the Canvas, this is where we learn about the people and the stories shaping education. So Jen, welcome to today's show. Hi, hi, thank you, thank you very much. No worries, if you'd just like to give us a quick intro about who you are and what you've done and and why you're here.

Okay. Well, my name is Jen. I have been a teacher in, secondary schools in Sydney for the last twenty number of years. And, yeah, I sort of started a long time ago, and I've taught mostly in in a range of schools, Catholic schools, independent schools, government schools. I've lectured at university for a little while.

Yeah. And all of that, the majority of that has been as a technology teacher and which has given me the advantage, I guess, of being able to play with, technology with kids in schools. It's been a lot of fun. Fantastic. And I think, you know, I really liked your little mhmm that you had going on there.

I thought it took a while for the penny to drop. I clearly haven't had enough coffees. And then I sat there and I thought, well, you know, the mhmm plus years though. The thing that I love about that is the fact that you have adopted technology into your classroom and also into your classroom and also into your career now as well. You know? So what we see that sometimes there's a little bit consideration around how teachers are gonna adopt Canvas throughout, you know, schools and they've been used to be doing it a certain way.

And then, I guess, for me, the reason why I wanted you to come on today's show is when we first met, it was because of our partnership with Cidi Labs because you are a Canvas partner. But the more and more I unpicked and asked you some questions, I found out what a wonderful advocate you are of Canvas and also the experiences that you've had and I think because of that experience that you've had about implementing it into a school and then obviously where your career took you, That's why I wanted you to come and talk on today's show because we know that a lot of our Canvas users have experienced the same sort of challenges and how they overcome that. So could you just unpack that a little bit more for me, please? Yeah. Absolutely. I, was lucky enough to work with a school that was looking towards technology and understood that this was not something we needed to be scared of, but we needed to embrace.

So, a colleague and I were lucky enough to go shopping for LMSs. So we, we went went to conferences and we went we signed up for as much as we could and we met with lots of companies and things like that. But the one we just kept coming back to was Canvas and, I think because we always took this concept that we were looking for a learning environment, not just a tool to, you know, give our teachers and our students, but we really wanted to create this really dynamic, interesting learning environment that included, you know, all the different learning styles that we could. So that's where we landed. And so I was working with that school, and learning Canvas at the same time, like, sort of being in charge or not really in charge, but in being part of the team that was, you know, charged with, you know, bringing this into the school environment, it was challenging teachers, for a group of human beings who spend their lives encouraging young humans to, you know, change and grow and develop and be curious and be creative and look for, you know, alternative solutions and all those kinds of things, we are the least likely to enjoy change.

And I get it. It's hard. It takes a lot of work. And if things are working for you, why change it? If they broke, don't fix it. But but I think, you know, once we established Canvas in that school and we I learned so much about, you know, what was great for the teachers, what was good for the kids, all those kinds of things.

And and we involved our parents in our community in our learning community really early, which I don't advise, but, you know, not until you're really ready. And then I was lucky enough to work with a number of different schools who are trying to go through the same process. So I got to sort of really see and utilize the things that I learned in that first school in the process of bringing in a learning management system and introducing technology in a way that teachers had never used it before in a number of different schools. So, yeah, it was a really interesting time. And I guess because of that, now having been involved in a number of schools trying to go through this process and helping staff and, working with leadership teams and talking to them about, well, why are you even doing this? If you don't understand why you're doing this, your teachers are not gonna understand why, and neither are your students or your parents.

So, and then right through to, you know, professional development or professional learning with teachers and helping them understand how they you know, it's it's like it's just another tool in your toolbox. It's we're not asking you to, you know, reinvent the wheel, and we want my aim has always been, I guess, being a teacher, and working in schools, I know how much teachers are doing and how hard they're working, and they really are. They're they're working really hard. So I really wanted to make sure that any kind of new things I, you know, tried to integrate or tried to, you know, help staff with came from a place of helping them make their teaching and, their experience as smooth and, as possible and for them to realize I'm not really asking you to do more. I'm just asking you to do different.

You've touched on so many elements there, Jen, and I think, you know, it's really led you to where you are today. Right? You can absolutely see that technology I always say that technology is the easy part. Right? It's that change management and that adoption piece and how you embed it into a school and you talked about how you're able to work with the teachers to show them to make smaller changes so and and how Canvas can help support that and I'm sure that you have very, very good topics that we can sort of raise around that. I think for me being a technology teacher, let's talk about what what brought you to the education space and what drives you around sort of technology and education and how those two combine? Yeah. Probably, I never really thought I was gonna be a teacher in in at school.

My dad's a teacher, you know, and I sort of watched him mark essays while we were on holidays at beach, and I thought, okay, I'm not doing that. But then, you know, the closer I got to finishing school, I was one of those kids who didn't really have much of a clue and no real idea. So, I, you know, got a few university offers for a couple of things. I, you know, picked teaching and teaching in technology in particular because I felt like, you know, it sounded interesting. It sounded a little bit fun.

You know? I I got to go in the woodwork room or the workshop, and I learned how to weld. And I, you know, taught food tech classes and, you know, did barista courses, and I got to do, you know, so much more interesting stuff. And I thought, you know, that's if I find it interesting, hopefully, the kids will find it interesting. I didn't wanna just, you know, sit in a classroom with, you know, a a textbook and some kids and and a whiteboard. So once I started, I, I kind of got addicted to it.

I loved it. I love, being around kids. Teenagers, a lot of people find them scary. I think they're hilarious. Do you want mine? I've had I've seen my own too through, you know, teenagerhood, and it's not a joy as a parent.

It's hard and frustrating, but there are moments where they're they're hilarious. I find them funny. They're so desperate to be unique in individuals, but in so many ways, they're just the same kids year after year after year. Yes. They're not.

Tell them that because, you know, they're so hell bent on being themselves, and they are, but, you know, and I just enjoy them. I just enjoy working with young people. I find them funny and interesting and challenging, and they haven't you know, it's I'm not gonna tell you, you know, every class I've always had has been a bed of roses. It's times where I've walked out of the classroom and went, well, that was a disaster. I'm never doing that again.

But I always find that in itself a challenge. Like, I enjoy Yep. You know, trying new things, finding you know, having with a group of kids, and it totally missed the mark with them and having to come out of it and go, well, how am I gonna like, what am I gonna do? Like, how am I going to connect with these kids? What can I do? How can I do this differently so that they, you know, connect with the in the stuff I'm trying to teach them? So I find that challenge really fun. I find it fun. So in the role that I've taken up now, and I only sort of finished teaching at the end of last year in this in this role with, a tech company, I was really concerned that I would really miss schools.

And not just the kids, I'd miss the community that schools ask because schools are an amazing community of teachers and, you know, everyone who works in the school. So I was concerned I was I would miss that a lot. So far, no, because I still am lucky enough in this role to connect with lots of schools and lots of different people. And I've been to visit schools I never really thought I ever would, and things like that. So, what led me to being a teacher? Oh, I don't know.

Providence, fate, luck, all those kinds of things. And the fact that I just enjoy it, it's been fun. It really has been. And I've worked been lucky enough to work with schools and principals that, have challenged me. And anytime I've gone to them and said, I think I think we need to think about technology this way or that way, they were really supportive.

And they've gone, okay. If you have an idea, let me know. And, you know, usually, I trundle off, do, you know, a ton of research, come back, and they go, don't think so. But, occasionally, they say yes. So, you know, it's a lot of, challenge, and I like I like that.

That is a whole host of information there. And, also, if you are a speaker, I'm thinking about you know, I had a teacher called mister Elliott who taught me woodwork and also kind of taught me PA, and I saw him when I was in my hometown, and I apologize to him for being an absolute brat. But, Jen, if you had been my teacher, I would have been all over it. So, if we could rewind. But I think, you know, the fact that you have had principals back you, and had that school community, it really just shows who you are and people buy into your passion.

Right? And I think that's why you've been able to be so success successful in bringing Canvas into the numerous schools that you have worked within that collaborative process and what that does look like. Because I also say that people are nine times out of ten on board with things if it's happening with them, not to them. And it sounds like you're absolutely nailing that collaborative approach. And so, obviously, off in those early days when you were niche initially were learning with Canvas and as you were growing throughout that school. But something else that I wanna touch on which I find really fascinating and I'd like to hear more about how you overcame it was when you went from this school that you'd got Canvas up and running to and it was like, you know, the environment that you called it to moving to a new school where Canvas is there but Canvas was not really being utilized to its full capacity.

And, I was coming everyone who's who's met me. He's this this analogy is that Canvas is a Ferrari and some people kind of either driving it like a Corolla and Corollas are cool or they've got it in their garage with the wheels off. Right? And so I think if you could just touch on a little bit about how you came into this school, what the feedback was and the sentiment about no, we're not gonna use this and then where it ended up and just in the pictures that you could have around that place. Yeah. Absolutely.

That's exactly the analogy I use with my principal when I went to him, and I said to him, like, you've got this Ferrari in the garage. What are you doing? Like, who owns a Ferrari and never drives it? I don't know. I've never owned a Ferrari. Maybe I would. But You will after this, Jen.

You'll be an absolute rock star every weekend. Out every weekend. Anyway but I feel exactly the same way, you know, and I, you know, sometimes I said to him, even from an economic point of view when you talk to their business managers, you're paying for this product and, you know, you need to be getting the most out of it, and there's so much it can do. So let's get it out of the box, give it a shake, dust it off and see how we go. Yeah, it it's not easy and, you know, there was a lot of resistance.

This particular school, I love them, but they they kinda got given Canvas or, you know, they they became part of the Canvas family just before COVID hit. And so they got, you know, here's this here's Canvas. Here here you go. Off you go. Take this.

And then COVID hit, and they just had no idea what they were doing or how to do it or what to do. So they just, resorted back to what they knew, and that was, you know, Teams and and, you know, teaching directly one on one with that environment. And it worked because that's where they were comfortable, and that's what they were happy doing. And, then we obviously, we came out of COVID. And in my previous school, when we came out of COVID, we we sat down as a team and said, what did we learn during that time, and what can we take from that moving forward? We learned that, you know, we can deliver some stuff online, and kids are capable.

And we looked at how we could bring that forward with us and continue to grow that. Whereas this new school I was at didn't have that experience, and they were like when I turned up, I I was the Canvas lady. And, they're like, so what are you gonna do? And it was, you know, I think they felt like I was gonna come in and make them chuck out everything they'd ever learned and start from scratch, and there was no teaching. But if unless it happened in Canvas, and it was like, you know, I don't care what you've done for the last fifty years in this school. All of it's rubbish.

Canvas is the only thing there is. And it took them a little while to recognize that, you know, that's I'm I'm interested in that blended learning environment. There are times when, yes, exercise books and textbooks and whiteboards are the best thing ever for a lesson, And there are times when Canvas is and there are times when, you know, doing deep dives on the Internet into how well Kronos work is better. Like, it's picking the tool for the job Yeah. And trying to help them understand that it's just picking the right tool for the right job.

Mhmm. How did we get any kind of traction? Again, the support of the leadership team, they decided that, you know, after I reminded them that this was a really great, tool that they had, it was being underutilized, and they needed to look at how they could increase that usage. We started with simple things. We started with every single course had to have a home page. Blanket rule.

Every course had to have a home page. So then we spent time looking at home pages. We sent we sort of made a rule that every single formal assessment notification in the school had to go via Canvas. Mhmm. SO parents would see the notification as well.

And then they started to say, oh, well, my students can submit via Canvas too. And I'm like, wow. Imagine imagine that. And this school had just gone through a process of, serious professional learning on the value of feedback and, you know, they understood how important good, constant, ongoing feedback is for students. So I'm like, wow.

Did you know you can use Canvas for that with well built, you know, well thought out, well structured rubrics? You can be giving them feedback on the minutiae of their task, their overall task. You can be giving them feedback every day, all day on whatever you want to give them feedback on. So they were like, oh, how do we do that? So then we had an intensive peel period on rubrics and how to build a really good, well thought out rubric, how to pull in the outcomes from the syllabuses that we're using. So if you're in your assessment notification, it says you're assessing this particular outcome, then why is that outcome not in your rubric in some way? And then, you know, the depths and the levels that of feedback you can give students in in a well structured, well thought out rubric. So then they start to go, oh, so what else can this do? I'm like, okay.

Let's go. Let's have a look at quizzes. Oh, you mean those multiple choice quizzes I do, the Canvas can mark them? Yeah. Yeah. They can.

And you can still get your kids to write your essays because handwriting's important. They still do HSE exams in handwriting. But why are you wasting time marking multiple choice? Like, it just seems a waste of your time. So that means, obviously, one thing leads into the next, and then we talk about, you know, question banks. And yeah.

So it builds, but it was a process of starting with one or two things. Yeah. Things. And it's one or two things that weren't overwhelming, like building a home page. And then, oh, so what's a page? Okay.

Let's have a look at a a module. Let's have a look at pages and then, you know, sort of using templates and things like that to help make that process smooth and easy. Yeah. I think, you know, the different elements, it just sort of takes one sort of, I guess, item to build that, that traction and that momentum. And you're starting to show teachers that it is easier to do something with Canvas when things you've set those foundations correctly.

And then as you say, it it kind of just escalates. And then they're like, oh, this and this and this and this. So again, it's still that happening with them, not to them. And it sounds like you provided some really sound training on each of those elements as well and working through that. But I think you've also you know, you touch on something there around making the educators' lives easy, which is where I guess Canvas, you know, we are the environment, but the ability to pull in other sort of partners and LTI tools, which is where I guess Cidi Labs comes in, which is probably, you know, not only are you a Canvas advocate, but I know that we've previously discussed you love Cidi Labs, and now here you are.

So I think, you know, can you talk me through a little bit about how that came to fruition? Yeah. I think it was really it was really interesting. So CampL sort of use of CidiLabs and and the design tools that they've, they've built came fairly early for in my use of Canvas. So for me, the two, kinda go hand in hand. Mhmm.

So, you know, working with with those tools in the schools that I've been in and if I was in a school environment that was using Canvas and struggling with, how do I make this look nice or how do I make this interactive? I'm trying to find ways rather than just have this blank HTML page where the kids just read and then they go do something else. I'm like, how can I build something that's, interactive, interesting, catches the attention of these TikTok generation kids? And, also, you know, it's easy for me to replicate time after time, you know, and, you know, easy for me to share with my colleagues or so, you know, the the Cidi Labs tools helps me do that. And as a Canvas admin, I can build templates for faculties and say the English faculty like their pages to look like this. So I can build it, and then every English teacher has access to just a template. So when they're building their own content, it's quick and easy, or maths or science, and everyone can have their own individual, or I can have it just as a school wide thing and just go everyone has to look exactly the same.

So, yeah, I think my time with the products eventually, the company reached out and I asked if I'd like to work with them, which was a really great opportunity. I am, obviously, a career teacher. And to have someone come and say, do you wanna try and live on the other side of the fence for a bit? I'm like, cool. Let's try this out. It's really different, but I'm enjoying it so far.

But, I think, obviously, being an advocate of the tools and what they can do for teachers Mhmm. Is what made made the transition kind of easy for me. And so when I do go in and do training or talk to people about what CIDR labs and the tools do, they're like, it's it's about me trying to help teachers make their lives easier, help them understand how to build well structured Canvas courses Yes. Because, you know and understand how good structure helps you as a teacher, helps your kids understand where to go, what to get, and how to get to where they need to be. Yes.

And then these tools just come in and help make it look pretty and easy and, you know, chuck some interactive in there so that they're actually doing stuff with the page, not just looking at it. So, yeah, that's how those came together. I think, you know, your story and as I said when we first met and talking about because for me, returning to Canvas, you know, I'd heard of I'd heard of Cidi Labs, but it wasn't really adopted within my previous space being the RTO space. Yeah. And, obviously, seeing you at all of the Canvas cons or Cidi Labs at all of the CanvasCons, I wanted to know more.

So also talking about, you know, we have Block Editor coming and I wanted to understand how that would work with Cidi Labs and what that looks like for schools that have previously adopted. And then what are the other features coming out? I know that we've talked about accessibility and and what you can support and just add that additional additional level of sort of functionality maybe. Can you talk me through that a little bit, please? Yeah. I'm a bit of an advocate for accessibility at the moment. It seems to be a topic that's coming up a lot with, with schools, yeah, and definitely with our higher ed, university, clients through Canvas through Cidi Labs, sorry, which I've never really dealt with before until now.

So accessibility seems to be a really big thing. And, in the last couple of years, I did, a fair bit of work with schools in relation to the the whole concept of the universal design for learning, which really looks at how we can build resources and teaching courses that really are accessible for every student in our class. And the school I was at, they they've got a big, professional learning program at the moment looking at gifted and talented, but it still fits within that accessibility range. You know, we're not always just talking about those those kids who are struggling to access content. We're looking at those kids who access content quick and easy and are looking for more challenge and more something interesting, more and more and not just more in terms of, loads of more content, but but development, ways they can grow and ways they can chase their own curiosity within, you know, a teacher's, course.

And so, you know, so accessibility is a huge thing. I'm I'm loving how everyone's taking it seriously, and I'm loving how people are really putting some thought into how can I make my content accessible? So Cidi Labs has tools for that, you know, will run over their people's courses and look for ways in which accessibility is not being addressed to its fullest down Mhmm. Down to little things like your head is at the wrong level or your colors are not quite contrasting properly in little things. But I think for me, the the real drive behind it, which I like, is that it's trying to encourage teachers to think about accessibility in what they're building, but also make it easy to address accessibility in what they're building. And, you know, you don't have to be an accessibility expert.

You don't have to be a coding expert. Mhmm. It's a tool that will do it for you and, you know, enable you to build resources that every kid in your course should be able to access at some level. And then we're bringing in this whole universal design for learning layer to it and are encouraging our teachers and our clients to think about, you know, are you building courses and resources that really touch on those, concepts to meet the needs of all of your learners. And I think, you know, touching on the the universal learning design, right, with the likes of Mastery Paths and really sort of building out that learning differentiation because when you've got we're not just speaking about those kids that are sort of, you know, need a little bit extra assistance.

It's more so about those children as well that are the high achievers. And to your point, it's not just the load that we give to them. It's the different different content that's really helping expand them and helping them grow, sometimes even beyond what they the teacher thinks that they're capable of. Right? And I think if we can support our teachers by giving them the you know, setting up helping them and educating them on what MasteryPaths can do and making that life easier for them. And then also I think about, you know, my son, there are some learning difficulties that he struggles with and he can see the other kids get different content, you know, throughout his class because they don't yet have a learning management system.

But imagine if you're sitting in a class and you're all just sitting at your laptop and you're all learning. You don't know who's in what, whose content's getting which and, you know, aside from if they're sort of looking over each other's shoulders to to to cheat. But in saying that, though, everyone is still learning, and I think that that's a really great world to be in. So if we're supporting our teachers and sometimes there are teachers that don't even know that Mastery Paths exists or or what it even is. I have had a crack at MasteryPaths.

I have I have to say, I'm I'm one of those people that will just click on buttons just to see what happens. Yeah. And I did I have had a crack at MasteryPaths. I must admit it is work intensive, and and it really made me think about, not just challenging my gifted students with just more of the same, but challenging them and offering them a pathway where they could actually take their learning in a direction that maybe I hadn't considered, but that that's where their curiosity took them. You know? And and using things, with the mastery paths, using things like passion projects where kids can sort of pick an avenue that they really liked.

And, I was lucky enough to be teaching, a year nine IT class, and, you know, I sort of differentiated and built a mastery path for them to see, you know, first of all, if I could do it. Yeah. And to see how they they sort of, you know, were able to manage their own learning and giving students that sort of giving them that that advocacy in their own learning to say this is a direction I wanna take. And I'd be like, okay. Why not? And they'd be like, are you sure, miss? Are we mentally doing this? And he's doing he he's doing that over there.

I said, okay. He's you know? But still ensuring the the reason I loved it so much is because, you know, as as a teacher, you know, I'm still meeting the outcomes and doing all those, you know, teacher y things that I'm required to do, but also giving the key my students so much freedom for them to manage and decide where it is that their learning is gonna take them whilst ensuring I'm still meeting outcomes and, you know, the assessment ready and all those other boring tedious things. Yeah. I mean, mastery paths is such a powerful tool, but, and, you know, I think I would always encourage people to have a double. You know, it might feel like the dark arts, but, you know, it it's really worth it if you've, got the time and the energy to build the multiple layers of resourcing and things like that.

And I think that might be an area where some teachers feel, you know, overwhelmed by it because you do need to be looking at at least three levels of tasking and how the kids navigate that and almost backward design so that, you know, you you're sort of thinking about, well, where are they gonna end up? So I've gotta backward design this. So, yeah, it's not, and, you know, I'm a massive advocate for teachers and how much they work. So I am very conscious that that would take time and energy and effort and, but I think I think it's something that would be so worthwhile, that it would probably be worth that time and effort. Hundred percent. I kind of used to when I first learned about it, I used to think of it as a bit of a choose your own adventure style learning.

Yeah. That makes sense. You know, you can sort of take it as far as as far as you would like in offering your students that advocacy and that own voice around where they're going to take it. Because, again, the great point that I like there that you make is that you're still wrapping the boundaries around it and the governance and the requirements but still giving those little brains an opportunity to think outside the box. Yeah.

Is that student that you have could next have the cue to cancer or will be the inventor of a flying car? You know? So again, if we just give them one piece of content and expect them to work, are are we limiting them? We'll never know. Yeah. And I really love that saying is if you always judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it's always gonna be considered stupid. Right? And I think that with MasteryPaths, it also provides that student an opportunity to submit on how they want to, whether or not it's a video or whether or not it is an essay or if it's sort of, you know, just text to speech or a drawing or whatever that may be. I think that, you know, Canvas really has that opportunity to be that student voice as well as the teacher voice while still supporting the whole community that you talk about within a school, letting the parents witness and the parents see because I know for me if I knew that my learning management system where my that my child goes to school at was giving their ability for them to grow, it would be go gangbusters, good luck.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was, so sorry. Just to come back to that, like Yep. One of the other ways, one of the schools I've worked with has been trying to address that is not is sort of offering every student multiple ways of submitting or multiple levels of one task.

So we might be asking them to complete one particular task. But, because I'm a technology teacher, we had apprentice craftsman and master craftsman, and the students could have a look at all the layers and decide and we linked those to Bloom's taxonomy and things like that. And the students could look at the levels and go, I think I can access this task at that level. I'm gonna have a crack at craftsman. And, you know, and they, you know, were able to sort of, again, like you said, choose which level they wanted to attempt if there were students that we felt were just constantly going for that base level.

As a teacher, that falls on me to have that conversation with them and say, look. I really think next task, I want you to have a crack at Craftsman because I can see you can do this. Let's have a go. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's that was built just within assignments and courses.

So and that is where from where, you know, the growth into MasteryPaths is actually much, more straightforward, I think. If you get that concept even in just a general course with general assignments, and then you can see, oh, I could easily take this into MasteryPaths and have Canvas help me manage that. Mhmm. I think it really is also around the equity of education delivery as well. Right? Because you you talked about earlier that, you know, textbooks and and notepads and all of those types of things are still fantastic, and Canvas is here, and then it's here.

It's you know, we we don't advocate for Canvas must be the be all and end all as well. It really is that tool that everything else plugs into to support your whole education environment. Right? And when you get that foundation correct and when people are able to see, I guess, the potential throughout schools, and I think that's what I'm seeing a lot is that schools have Canvas kind of like a marriage, near you, it's been happening in the background for quite some time but how do we make people fall in love with it, right? And to your point, you know, I've seen some really phenomenal Canvas courses which are mind blowing and I would quite happily sit there and do them myself. And then I've seen some sort of links on a page and thinking, oh, good golly. No wonder.

And what I love hearing is that schools are vocally self critical and saying hey I think we can do better, what advice have you got? And what I'm loving is that schools are becoming a lot more collaborative and not so much competitive so as part of the Canvas community, I'm trying to encourage teachers to share more to that and sort of, you know, work with our partners and Canvas Commons, in my opinion, is something which is completely underutilized and get utilized a lot more. So, you know, I'm working with a particular organization called Code Coding Schools, and they're gonna start developing their free content and putting it on Canvas for teachers to access. Right? But, again, talking to someone who has never leveraged Canvas before, how do I make this cool? Yeah. Jen, I'm sure you going out into schools now in the CidiLabs sort of context that you're in in this role going, oh, good golly. We can help.

You know, I think that that must be a really amazing moment for you to go, it was this and now it's this. Can you talk me through some really cool examples that you've seen? Because it's kind of like a a little mini makeover, you know. It is. It is. And it's really fun because, you know, I've had some, you know, customers come to me and go, look.

I make really great Canvas courses. My courses are amazing. My my students love them, and I'm like, great. Show me. I wanna see.

I'm always desperate to see what you is working. And, you know, this one particular customer brought up a page, and I'm like, it was just a chunk of text. It was like, you know, clip art gone crazy on the page. There was, you know, different fonts, lots of colors, you know, lots of and I'm sure if I put, you know, an an accessibility checker on it, it would have just blown up. You know, there was down the bottom, there was about seven different YouTube links and, you know, and I'm like and the customer is like, yeah.

Like, this is fantastic. And I'm like, okay. Let's give me five minutes. And we sat together, and I'm like, how about we use an accordion? And so your page design is much cleaner, much smoother. We can put all these YouTube links in one block and, you know, and call it extra resources or YouTube.

And and then the customer went away, and it was like, oh, wow. My students actually like that better. Mhmm. That's so much easier for them to find. And I think I often say to the teachers that I work with, I love working with you, but you know what? This this whole design part of your your courses and your content, it's not about you.

It it's about your students. And, you know, we get so caught up in what I think is a great looking page and what I think is awesome. And I love big headings and they all you know, at the end of the day, it's really not about me. It's about what's best for the students in my classroom, and it's about helping them find what they need quickly. I always say to my teachers when I'm trying to give them PD, if it takes you more than three clicks, you are doing it wrong.

Stop. Okay. Yeah. And the same with Canvas. I'm like, you know, if it takes you more through more than three clicks to get to where you wanna go, then you've done it wrong, and you need to make a button, put a link, you know, do something to make this a smooth and easy transition for your students.

You know, we every every school I've been, I've always advocated for teacher professional learning to be delivered via Canvas as well because it gives the teachers the the student experience. Yes. And if they're in a Canvas course going, I can't find it. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, well, imagine how the kids feel.

Yes. So, yeah, it's really important that we take sometimes we take ourselves and our own preferences out of the picture and think about what is it that's best for the students especially and then grade it according to the students that you have. You know, if you've got young students, they like bright colors and big buttons and things like this. Yeah. Older students, they're okay with, you know, a couple of recordings, a quick link to where they need to go, And especially if they're in a school that they've been using Canvas for a long time, by the time they are seeing new students, they're almost like university students.

They need a quick, clean, easy they don't need the fancy Giphys and things like that. Little kids love that. So, yeah, I think it's also always keeping in mind who you're designing for, not me, them, and giving the teachers the student experience of Canvas helps, where they understand what it's like on the other side of the table. I think, you know, you've also touched on the PD there as well, like using Canvas to deliver professional development. We're having a lot more conversations around what that looks like.

You know, even as far as, like, professional development on Canvas just makes sense. Right? Because if it's already embedded in the school, it removes a lot of that cognitive burden of getting teachers to use and learn another platform, you know. So I think teaching teachers how to use Canvas from that student facing just opens up a whole new world because to your point it's about the students and how that content hits because I know myself if anything is too hard I'm out. You've lost me. Right.

So, you know, probably fall into your capacity of big headings and gifts and all of that sort of fun stuff. I'm I'm down here. That's okay. It's knowing who you're designing for. I think, you know, like, you know, that no one likes to scroll for days.

Everyone likes it bang, bang, bang. So for us, you know, using accordions and expanders so that, you know, the what the the students or all the teachers see on the screen in front of them is literally it's all just there. You know, you don't have to scroll for for days to find the link on the bottom of the page. You don't have to, you know, go too far or there's a big call out in a bright red color that says, you know, need help? You know, click the button. You know, stuff that just really simplifies the process.

You know, you hear a lot about this whole cognitive load and ensuring that we're not overburdening our students in lots of ways. And I think, you know, using Canvas shouldn't be a difficult thing. It should just be intuitive for the kids. If you wanna get to today's classwork, put a link on the home page so they know where to go. Like, you know yeah.

So for me, it's always keeping in mind who I'm designing for, and I always encourage my teachers to keep that in mind. Yeah. Yep. No. I I really love that because it is important that it's the end user.

Right? Because, you know, if the students don't wanna do it, then you're gonna be met with more resistance. Right? But if you make it engaging and fun, then happy days. It's still learning, but you're speaking their language. Yeah. You have been absolutely amazing.

I very much enjoyed having you on the show today. I think, you know, you are an absolute wealth of knowledge and a huge canvas advocate. I'm really excited to see more of the work that you produce at Cidi Labs and the support. I'm coming to spend Cidi Labs day with you, which is exciting. Absolutely.

We just love yeah. It's it's gonna be amazing. I'm excited to be surrounded by our joint customers because I know that there are a lot of them and we work really well together. I also think that, you know, for me, it's about that partnering aspect because we we can't be everything to everyone. You shop at Willys, you shop at Coles and, you know, I think it's also about, you know, what that experience looks like as a whole.

You know? So if schools want to make it easier and, you know, leverage Cidi Labs to do that for their for their teachers and their admin, then it's happy days for me. Let me know how I can support. Do you know what I mean? Because I'd love to work with Cidi Labs a lot more closer. I think also, you know, having you at the CanvasCons and, you know, our customers will will tell me that, you know, we've used Cidi Labs for this long and we love it for these reasons and I just want to high five them and I think, you know, also to that point, Jen, it's a testament to you that you have, you know, been such an early adopter of Canvas and now you are actually living and breathing it and taking this out into on the other side. So thank you.

Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's but it's it's exciting.

I never thought I always looked at those reps who'd come into the school and think what a glamorous life they live. Wouldn't it be fun one day to be something other than just plain old classroom teacher? But, you know, I take that back. There's no such thing as a plain old classroom teacher. They're they're amazing. They're such hardworking human beings who truly, are so passionate about what they do, and that's why they're still there every day.

Kudos. But I just you know what? I just had to take this chance, and it's fun. It really is. And it and it's giving me, a platform to talk to people about learning environments and learning and, schools and students and Canvas. You know? So there's so many times I'm talking to them about, you know, using design tools, and I'm like, well, did you know Canvas can do this, this, and this? I did not know that.

Like, I didn't know you could have requirements on a module. And I'm like, yeah. Did you know? And they're like, this is cool. So it's not you know? For me, the two, you know, you can't have one without the other as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah.

No. It's a lot of fun. I'm, looking forward to our CidiLabs day in next week to meet so many people face to face that I talk to, over the phone or over Zoom. So, yeah, it's it's exciting times. So we are now up to the part of the show which I like to call my hidden gems.

I have three questions for you. Shoot. What did you want to be when you grow up? I wanted to be an architect. Nice. Yeah.

And I still if I find myself with free time, which, you know, isn't a lot of times, I still draw floor plans. And my favorite favorite favorite unit to teach with you seven is architecture. So I still get to live out that passion a little bit by teaching kids about architecture and looking at buildings and watching grand designs in class for an actual purpose, not just for fun. That is amazing. Did you, like, love the Sims then, you know, in designing all of our house? Yeah, building cities and yeah absolutely.

That is so cool, that's good to know. Next time I want to renovate a bathroom I'll come to you and make sure that I can get them. Great, can we do that on CidLabs? I'll find someone. Okay. Yeah.

And if you could have one superpower, what would it be? Oh, I think it probably isn't as glamorous as lots of people think. I think time travel because I'd like to go back and visit myself and my children when they were babies and spend more time just enjoying that time in their life. I think when they were babies, I was just so stressed and so forever looking to the next milestone and or they're gonna go to school and I'll get my life back. Oh, you know, they'll go to daycare and I can have five minutes peace. But I think if I had that time again, yeah, I would just go back and then chill out and enjoy babies.

And, my my kids as little kids and not forever rush through the process. That's that's really beautiful and gave me goosebumps. Thank you. Because if I think to this morning, getting my thirteen year old out the door, it was, how are you gonna be when you're eighteen conversation and yeah. I think that too sometimes even now, like my they're young adults and they're off, you know, at university and living their lives and doing their things, and I think, yeah, yeah, I enjoyed Motherhood.

I'm glad I stopped when I did and all those things. But I think, you know, if I had that, I could just go back and just chill out and play train sets on the floor and not worry about dinner. I love that. That's beautiful. Thank you.

And last question. Mhmm. What do you love most about Canvas? I love the opportunities it's given me. Mhmm. I love, connecting with other teachers and showing them amazing things at how they can leverage and make something amazing happen in their classroom that they never thought they could do.

And, yeah, I've you know, I'll sounds so nerdy, but I love a well structured, well thought out rubric. That's so bad to admit. But, I love that, you know, I can give kids enough Canvas assignment, and I can have them submitting with their own podcasts or videos or scripts, or I love that they can express their response in the way that they feel comfortable, and Canvas lets the kids do that. I love creating group work on Canvas. I love, you know, where that actually creates their own little mini Canvas within Canvas, and they get to build their own Canvas pages and watch them experience that.

Oh, there's so many things. Do I have to pick one? No. You've given us so many, and I love it. I think for me is as you're talking, my brain is just like, how are people gonna reach out to you? You know, because because they're gonna wanna know more. I think for me is also speaking of that Canvas community.

You're obviously on the Canvas community. I'm on there. My profile is, k twelve hot girl. You know, like, that is absolutely me. But I think thank you, Jen, because you have been a wealth of knowledge and a wealth of excitement, and I really very much appreciate your passion and advocacy for Canvas because I think when we first met over a month ago, I sat in that lobby of that hotel because I was running from meetings to meetings, and I thought you are you and I have so many similarities as far as our passion about how a technology platform, both eLabs and Canvas, can really help our teachers who are already bogged down and have so many impeding requirements and demands as well as helping shape the future.

So thanks, Tan. Thank you so much. Thank you.