The Fast and the Flexible: Creating Inclusive Learning Design for All Students

Welcome to Educast three thousand. It's the most transformative time in the history of education.

So join us as we break down the fourth wall and reflect on what's happening, the good, the bad, and even the chaotic. Here's your hosts, Melissa Lobel and Ryan Lufkin.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Educast three thousand, your favorite podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Lupkin.

And I am your guest cohost, Joni Sailor. On today's podcast, we're so excited to have the opportunity to speak with Katie Novak. Katie, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation.

Absolutely. Well, Katie, you know I'm a big fan, but we do have a lot of listeners to this podcast, and they may or may not know you very well. So would you take just a minute first to tell everyone of our listeners just a little bit about yourself?

Absolutely. So hello, everyone. My name is Katie Novak. I am a lifetime educator. I was a classroom teacher for over a decade.

I taught middle school and high school English, and then I was a district wide reading coordinator, ELL director, spent six years as an assistant superintendent of schools, and then transitioned to consulting full time, which means I get to teach graduate courses and travel all over the world to work with amazing educators who are really, really committed to meeting the needs of all kids. So this is the only thing I've ever done. It's the only thing I could ever imagine doing. And also, I'm the mom of four kids.

I have four amazing children, three teenagers and a ten year old. I cannot believe they're getting so big. And one wacky fact about me is that I love, actually love, to run ultramarathons.

So That sounds so painful to peaceful.

It's, like, meditative. Like, you can just go out there. It's you, your sneakers, my yellow lab, the road, and, you know, just going out for hours and running is kinda how I find balance in this wild, beautiful work.

Wow. Yeah. It does sound painful to me too, but you make it sound wonderful.

Well, and if you joined us for InstructureCon twenty twenty five in Spokane, you probably already remember, Katie. And, Katie, I have to say, in my twenty five plus years of doing education conferences, you are the single most energetic and entertaining keynote I have ever I mean, we even had so much of standing backstage before you went on, and then when you went on, I was like, we need more of this. And so I think Jody and I were talking about the podcast, like, the minute we walked out after the keynote. So I I had to throw that out there.

Yep. I have energy for days. That is never in short supply.

It is infectious for sure. So one of the things, if you listen to the podcast, you know that we always ask for your favorite learning moment, and that can be you know, you could be either on the teaching side or the learning side, but a learning moment that stands out from your past.

Okay. So one of my favorite stories, this has just came to mind, is I really, really strongly believe in choice and voice. So making sure that we have really flexible experiences for all learners to find those access and entry points so that they can learn at really high levels and share their learning. And a part of that is really listening to learners.

And so I had been teaching seventh grade for probably ten years at this point. And I had a student, and I remember I was always super open to kids like standing up and using fidgets. And as I was observing him, I could tell that his focus one hundred percent shifted to the fidgets. It was no longer a tool.

It was, like, one hundred percent what he was doing. And so, you know, I never wanna critique anyone publicly. And so, like, I move on. I wait till we start working in small groups and the students are kind of, you know, self directed.

And I walk over and I was like, Hey, just checking in, seeing how you're doing today. And he's like, I'm fine. And I'm like, You just seem like a little bit distracted. I just wanted to make sure everything's okay.

And he's like, Yeah. And I was like, Okay. Well, it looked like you were really paying attention to, like, the paper crane you were making. He's like, Oh, I was.

And I was like, Oh, okay.

Well, why? And he's like, because you are painfully boring.

And I like, I can this is a core memory. And so, you know, when you have taught middle school, like, your feelings are never hurt when kids say things like this because they're the most honest group of people in the universe. So I was like, wow. Like, that's a little bit unexpected.

Am I always boring? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, am I always painfully boring? He's like, well, you're not always painfully boring, but, like, you are boring.

And I was like, wow. Could I, like, open this up to the class? And he's like, yeah. Sure thing.

And I was like, okay. Well, you know, I don't wanna put you on the spot. He's like, no. Like, they'll tell you.

So Kelly, I didn't get this is before I knew about, like, restorative practices and community circles. I was like, hello, friends. It has come to my attention that I might be boring. And the only thing that I can imagine worse than being the boring teacher is, like, to be the boring teacher who thinks they're the fun teacher.

Like, that's the worst thing. Like, if you wanna embrace being the boring teacher, fine with me. So I was like, so honestly, honestly, honestly, honestly, I wanna know right now how things are going. Because I feel like this is pretty good, and I swear on my life, no repercussions.

Like, I need you to tell me as a friend.

This is like Trust tree in the nest. Let's figure out how Raise your hand if you think I'm boring.

And, like, more than half of them were like, well, you're not boring, but, like, this is really boring.

This is And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Like, sit really? And and it was one of those moments where there's this research that comes out every once in a while, and I'm never shocked because I've experienced this myself, that when we ask teachers, like, do you really know your kids? Do you know what they're interested in? Like, nearly every teacher is like, yeah.

Like, I really try to get to know kids. I really feel like what I'm doing is engaging. And then we ask kids like, Hey, do your teachers know you? And half of them are like, No, not really.

So I basically backed up and I was like, Oh gosh. Like, first, I need a paper bag to breathe into. And now that I'm over this initial shock, like, how could we have done this better? And for me, that was like the moment that, like, UDL became real because I was the one who was providing all these choices, thinking I knew kids well enough to design these pathways that were gonna work.

And when I finally was like, Is it working? They're like, Oh, nice try. Like, it was almost like when my mom says like, Oh, bless your heart. That's how it felt when I had, like, the paper crane incident.

So for me, it's I'm always really focused on I don't wanna design something for someone without them, and there was the child who taught me that.

So, okay, for our audience that may not know UDL, define that for anybody that maybe wasn't an instructor on or didn't isn't familiar with your word.

Would love to. So UDL stands for Universal Design for Learning. And at its most simple, if we unpack each of those words, we want to design a learning experience that truly works for everybody in an inclusive class. And everybody means anybody.

It means each. It means every. And so how do I design something so as learners come and go, all of them have what they need to be successful? And so one really simple way to explain this is to imagine having people over your house for a dinner party.

And you know, you know, your ten closest friends, cousins, but you don't really know who they're bringing as their plus one. And so you wanna essentially have something at the house that will allow everyone to come in and go, Oh, like, this is a great party. There's something I can eat. There's something I can drink.

And if we wanted to make sure that everybody could be successful, we would never say, You know what? The only thing that we're gonna be serving at this party is like deep dish lasagna. We're talking sausage. We're talking beef.

We're talking cheese. And everyone's gonna have this goblet of red wine, right? And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But we know that's not gonna work for everyone.

It's not universally designed. And my goal is, like, to have something to eat, something to drink. And so what we tend to do when we have parties is we start saying like, Okay, I'm gonna make lasagna, but I'm gonna have some salad. I'm gonna make sure that on the side I have some grilled veggies.

Maybe we potluck it. Maybe you bring your own things. And then we tend to have lots of things to drink. Right?

What can I get you? Water? Good.

Why gives me heartburn? I'm gonna stick with E. Yeah.

And then somebody's like, No, I'll just have a seltzer water.

Or, like, BYOB. It's all good. And we see the same thing happening in classrooms where teachers will have a standard or a goal like, I want all students to learn about characterization and share what they've learned about characterization.

And then we hand everybody a hard copy of a novel and say, You have to handwrite a five paragraph essay. And in an inclusive classroom, I can tell you that is not gonna work for everybody, but everyone can learn about characterization, and everyone can share what they're learning. So it's moving away from this one size fits all, casserole like teaching and saying, like, we need to really think about purpose and design a buffet of options with our learners so that they can make their own proverbial plates.

I love that analogy. It's really, really good.

It's just so personable. Right? And everybody can relate to it.

Yeah. Right. And everybody does it when they have people over their house. Like, there's always like, if you walked into my house, I wouldn't be like, oh, Ryan, love to see you. Here's a large glass of milk.

I would never do that. I would say, hey. I'd love to get you something to drink. I have, like, I have some milk.

I have some water. I could do coffee. I think I have beer and wine. Like, what sounds good for you?

And it's such human nature. Like, you almost make sure, wait. Wait. Why weren't we doing that before with kids? Like, why why wouldn't we think they could all fit into that same mold? You know?

Because the system lied to us.

No. What I really think it was is that we didn't have inclusive groups. So, like, if I know that everybody in my family, they're not picky eaters, they don't have any dietary restrictions, the truth is I can make a lasagna and have red wine, right? Like, there's nothing wrong with the lasagna and red wine, and it should never be eliminated. It just really can't be the only thing.

But now that we're getting more diverse, now that we're getting more inclusive, now that we have a better understanding of just how different people are from each other and how they're always changing, we need to have those options and choices at the ready. Whereas previously, it was very focused on, Let's separate everybody, and then let's try to give them what they need. But that just doesn't prepare anyone for the world that we're currently living in.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's neat.

Yeah. That's so interesting. And I think about as we're thinking to build these systems and change the system, which we were born into as educators, right? And as we think about working for every learner, like you're describing, how should we then be rethinking our metrics for success? Those are surely going to change as well.

And what outcomes truly reflect this inclusive, future ready learning environment that you're describing? And I have to throw in the caveat there too, of how do you respond to educators that say, but I don't have the time, or my resources are poor. So I think that all kinda is encompassed in how do we think about rebuilding this system and changing that mindset?

I don't disagree with teachers who say that. Clearly, I pull off a dinner party if I don't have ingredients in my pantry, if I don't have a stove and a refrigerator, if I don't have a bottle opener. There are tools and resources and necessity for time for preparing and collaborating that needs to be baked into the system. And so a lot of the work that I do to ensure that educators feel prepared to universally design instruction is to, like, really think about the systems of support for educators.

And a lot of people, when they hear the term multi tiered system of support, they're just imagining this triangle in their head with tier one, tier two, tier three. That's the MT part of this acronym. But the system of support, the SS, is about the professional development. It's about the high quality instructional resources.

It's about the culture and the climate of, you know, how do we do this work differently? It's about engaging families in the community. And we do need a support system because if we believe that all kids can really be successful, success obviously means different things. But if we believe every kid can learn at high levels and be successful when we get the conditions right, then we have to believe the same is true of the educators who have chosen to serve them.

Yeah. And that educators will be successful when they can be successful.

And so as we think about how do we measure excellence, is there right now is an absolutely enormous disconnect between what we say are the most important skills for the future and what we're measuring on these standardized assessment measures. And so there was this brilliant, brilliant piece of work from the World Economic Forum that was published in January of 'twenty five, and it was the Future of Jobs Report.

Yes, great And it's like, what really are the most important skills for the future?

And I kind of think of them as being in three different buckets. Like, you have your technology, right? Being more familiar with artificial intelligence, digital literacy, data analytics, right? And that's really important. And then we have what employers say is going to be the most important skill moving forward, which is your analytic thinking, your critical thinking.

Because as we tend to use and rely more on technology, human element of people to rip that apart and prompt appropriately.

To Like, these robots aren't tricking anyone. Like, they come right out, they're like, Yeah, we might not be right. We don't know.

Then people are doing things out.

They're colleagues. It's like, they've told you they don't know what they're talking about. So this analytical thinking, which is really about taking the time to think deeply. And there's conflict there because everything about AI is quick, efficient.

But deep reflection requires conscious analysis, and that actually takes time. And then we have our human skills: our customer service, our teaching and mentoring, our kind of self awareness, our lifelong learning. And so how do we design an education that provides access to these technologies, but also provides lots of opportunities for people to think deeply without those technologies, to really hone those human skills? And how do we do that in a way that nurtures relationships?

And if we're saying all of those things are important, the ability to mentor, the ability to serve others, the ability to think critically, the ability to use technology, technology does not allow us, or rather, standardized tests that are used. Like, we take standardized tests on technology, but they don't give us any access to the actual tools that I, as a professional writer, use. There's no voice to text. There's no read aloud.

Right? And so it's so strange to me that we're saying these are the most important skills, but we're not actually measuring those on the standardized tests.

And in fact, we're doubling down on the fact that we gotta go old school. We gotta do paper and pencil. Yes. We actually have to make it more difficult to accomplish the task because we're not gonna give you any of those tools, like you said, that you would actually get to use. Right?

But you can't say that those are the most important skills, and then entire school districts are banning those very skills from teachers and kids.

Yeah, Katie, I don't know about you, but there were so many times in my classroom that I was telling my students, use the tools that you have available and helping them to do this.

And then we'd get to that test, and I felt like such an impostor because they couldn't do those things.

And well, we'll link to this that report because I actually think it was one of the first reports that really came out and said, look, AI and technology, they're going to accomplish a certain number of things, and knowing how to use those tools are important, but the human skills are incredibly important. And since that came out, we've seen a number of other reports kind of doubling down on that same thing. So we'll link to that for our audience. But the other aspect too is in every this is something I was at ASU's GenTick AI and the Student Experience Conference a couple of weeks ago, and some of these recurring themes came up as well.

But like like any community, there's a spectrum of individuals, and you've got those educators that are really pushing the envelope with with UDL and trying to engage with students, and then you have those that are much more resistant. And you mentioned before, like, if you want to be a boring teacher, you can certainly be a boring teacher. Right? But, like, how do we move everyone along?

You talked a little bit about creating that system of support and things like that, but, like, how do we make sure it's more of it's a movement, not just supporting the outliers?

I think that it really does come back to that system of support. And so, so much of the work that we are driving towards, interestingly, is required. So most educator evaluation systems are built on the Danielson framework, of which one of the domains is teaching all learners, ensuring that all learners are truly engaged, are being challenged, have access to these really robust, authentic learning opportunities. And so, like, when people say, Well, what if educators won't do it?

Is we're not using these standards for effective teacher practice to really drive professional learning and to not suddenly say everybody needs improvement. It's not that at all. But it's trying to say, like, listen, there are firm goals for what it means to be a teacher today. And you're required to work towards those goals.

And the system is gonna help you to do that. But if you're not doing it already, then we're gonna provide you with instructional coaching. We're gonna have you watch your colleagues who are more comfortable doing this so you have this demonstration of impact. Right?

We're gonna start working with you to create these improvement cycles. And what we end up happening sometimes is, you know, right now we're living in a country where ninety nine percent of educators are proficient, and we don't even have forty percent of kids who are meeting grade level standards. And there is a significant disconnect between what we're saying we want people to do, saying that they're doing it, and then going, Well, the kids aren't learning. And the truth is, is educators are working incredibly hard.

I would argue too Absolutely.

But we're not highlighting what really is it that we need them to do. And if we're going to be doing that, what are we subtracting? So I just read this incredible book called Subtract, which just says, like, basically everything that we're doing is like a game of Jenga, is we're telling people to do more, more, more, more, more, and then it falls. And it's not about doing more.

It's like, no, you are no longer standing in front of your class and giving a lecture for forty minutes. You're not doing that anymore. Kids aren't copying notes from the board anymore. You're not doing that.

We're not handing out printed text because they're disabling too many learners. And so it's not like trying to fit it into what we're already doing. We have to abandon and unlearn what we're doing and do something really differently. But the truth is, is that we don't have these cultures that really allow teachers to take risks.

And I have no problem with educators being risk averse, saying, You know what? You're asking me to do this thing. I'm not sure if it's gonna work. I don't have the supports to really pull it off.

And there's never truly been any accountability for requiring these types of changes because we're always saying, We're bringing this in, we're bringing this in, and everybody's still proficient, still proficient. And so, just as much as I have a significant issue with the standardized testing culture, I also have a very significant issue with educator evaluation culture, which is that we've created this really cumbersome system that was meant to drive improvement, meant to create accountability. And it's become something that is like checking boxes and going, Well, everyone's doing an okay job, so we'll just give them proficient.

And there's really there's this kind of interesting tension between, like, you're telling me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, and now you're telling me to change, like Well, and we know the the growth mindset is all about giving people the ability to fail, building failure into the process of growth.

Right?

Like, so if we're not allowing people to fail, if we're just I mean, that kind of we know that's not the best way to But, like, why are we spending so much time to tell everybody that they're proficient and then also say we need billions of dollars of professional development to change practice?

Those things cannot coexist.

That is true. That is true. No. Everybody's passing, but we really need more money to actually improve.

Right. Like, you're doing everything we're asking you to do, but we need you to change everything. And it's like, no wonder teachers are like, you know what?

I'll just sit this one out. And, like, again, it's it's a hardworking group of people. Like, I spend a lot of time in classrooms. And even though I may not see things that are flexible or universally designed, like, you're seeing people who are passionate about their content area, who love kids, who don't know another way to do it, or don't have what they need to transition to it. And one of the things that, like, boils me is that people will be like, Can you come out and do professional development and help teachers realize they're already doing a lot of this? And I was like, I haven't seen anyone teach.

And what I know for sure is in a school district where half of the kids are not even meeting typical growth, I can tell you for sure it is not universally designed because not all kids are learning. I'm not talking about proficiency. I'm talking about straight up how many kids are meeting growth targets. And if they're not all meeting growth targets, then they're all learning yet.

And it's this is not about intention. It's not pointing fingers at teachers. It's saying that the system clearly hasn't supported teachers to be able to support all kids, because if not all kids are learning, then it's not designed for all kids to learn. And so we have to stop saying, Oh, we're already doing a lot of this.

Right? This is radically different from the way that many of us were taught to design and Absolutely.

So showing modeling what good looks like, modeling what the actual future looks like is incredibly important for that.

Yeah. And to get your early adopters out in front of people, because there's always gonna be people who are willing to take those risks, who say, wow, this is really awesome. But then if those people are just in their classrooms and no one gets to see that, then other people say, well, it's just not possible. And it's like, well, it is possible. Like, go watch the teachers on the hall. It's like, oh, we don't have sub coverage for that.

And it's like, So Katie, you talked about all of these districts that are asking you to come out and highlight what teachers are already doing and to show them, Hey, you're already doing so much of this.

Now let's take it to the next step. I hear those same things when I'm talking to folks about UDL or even just inclusive design. And I'm curious, how do you describe the difference? Because I suspect what you see is similar to what I see, is that they're giving voice and choice by saying, You can do this type of assignment, this type of assignment, or this type of assignment. So they're thinking, Oh, I've given them three choices. And yet, we know just giving those choices is not getting to the true essence of what UDL is.

So I'm curious if that is the same thing that you're seeing when they think that they are already doing so much of this. And how do you help them get outside of that box of, I'm providing choice for them. I give them choice boards. I give them what they need. And move really, truly to this reframed vision of what UDL really brings to a classroom.

Yeah. I mean, I agree that educators are often really focusing on being more flexible, giving students choices. Do you want to work by yourself? Do you want to work together with partners?

You know, even when I was in school, there were times it was like, How do you want to share what you've done? Do you want to make a skit? Do you want to make a video? Right?

And we've seen a lot of that. But UDL really comes down to firm goals and flexible means.

And it starts off with a lot of the work from John Hattie on, like, really clear teacher clarity. And so taking the time to say, What really is it that all learners have to know and do? Right? What is the core essence of each standard in terms of the nonnegotiables?

And then what is the standards based success criteria that all students have to meet? And then from there, how can we communicate that to build teacher clarity and student clarity to say, This is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it. This is what success looks like.

And then from there, knowing that all of you are going to try to work towards mastery or beyond mastery, and that's nonnegotiable, Given that and the nature of each of our goals or standards, what is the appropriate pathway for flexibility? But what we know is that learner agency is built over time. And so we can't just start giving options and choices if we haven't really provided opportunities for students to explore all of those different choices first, to explicitly reflect on all of those different choices. And again, that requires a lot of really conscious time, a lot of conferencing with kids, which does not coexist with the nature of trying to cover so much curriculum.

So we're putting teachers in a really tight spot. I'm not talking about teachers here. I'm talking about the systems that have made it very difficult for teachers to implement this with any sort of integrity. Because on one hand, we're saying, We want you to, like, really take the time to make sure that students are learning deeply.

We know that if they're going to be able to make more responsible choices, they have to try all these different pathways. And then on the other hand, we're saying, But we adopted this curriculum, and it's one lesson a day, and you've to get through That's right. We can't point fingers at teachers because that's not happening yet. But then on the other hand, we're saying, Oh, you're already doing a lot of this.

And it's like, teachers are so frustrated. And, like, just tell me what you want me to do. And that's what I find when I go to a lot of places, is that this means that we're designing something so everyone can actually learn deeply, knowing that they learn at different paces, learning that they have different strengths, learning that they have to use different materials. And so we have to take the time.

So the most simple way for me to explain this is, let's say, note taking, right? There's no standard that says note taking. But we do know that it's really important for students to make notes. So we want to move from note taking, copying things down, to note making, which is more of like making thinking routines visible.

Right? We're asking them to summarize what they're learning. We're asking them to put it in their own words or to put it in their own kind of visuals. And so I might say to learners, listen, I'm gonna provide you with some instruction.

I'm gonna do some modeling. We're gonna look at exemplars. And, like, I wanna pause periodically and ask you to reflect deeply and then to make your thinking visible in a way that really works for you in terms of, like, summarizing main ideas, like making your notes. And there are a number of different ways you can do this.

But, like, if I just put up a choice board and say, Make your thinking visible using Cornell Notes, Sketch Notes, or Digital Notes, every kid's like, I don't know what those are, and or I don't really understand how to do them in a truly evidence based, inclusive, flexible way. And so, like, this requires me, if I'm, quote unquote, going to design instructions so all kids are able to do this, I might say something like, okay, I'm gonna share with you the evidence base on note making. I want you to understand why we're doing this because you're thinking that I'm just asking you to do it out of compliance.

I'm gonna share with you how weak working memory Explain the why.

I see that all the time. I love that.

Yes. Like, why are we doing this, my darlings? And then I'm gonna share with you three evidence based ways. Now, an evidence based is not a guarantee.

It just shows that when learners have done this, they have done better than the group that didn't do it. It didn't mean it worked for every learner. Right? But we have to kind of go through and explore this.

But we've been talking too about how AI takes some of that pain. Like, they're not reading the two hundred pages that you assigned them over the weekend anymore. AI is summarizing it for them. Right? And so they're not learning in the same way. But this this actually makes space for actually building AI into the process by kind of flipping it. But that's what I love.

I think there's this concept that somehow they're learning less because They're learning more about what it means to learn, and they might be getting content in more accessible or efficient ways.

But like, so people always say, Show me a UDL lesson. Show me a UDL lesson. Show me a UDL lesson. Right?

And so imagine that I've done all of this work. Right? I've, like, put in the time to build routines, to have students reflect. And we're not just doing formulaic reflection.

How did that go? Like, this is really deliberate. Look back on all of the different assessments we've done this year.

Correlate that to the type of note making that you did. What are you noticing about the trends? What have you learned about yourself? Right?

And if I do that, right? Let's say that we get to March, and I have a lesson, and the lesson is straight up. We're gonna do a short, profound text. Choose how you wanna access that text.

Right? And there's like, you could do readers' theater. My kids would already know what that is because we've modeled it. We've gone through it.

Then you're gonna make some notes as you're reading, and here's the essential questions that you wanna do your note making with. Right? They would know all of those. And so people will look at that lesson.

They'll say, I'll try that, and they'll say, It didn't work. And I'm like, Of course it didn't work. Because we have to build and mentor and create that agency. And so what I think is happening, because of the lack of time, because of the lack of resources, teachers are kinda put in this little pickle where they're like, Okay, you have a bunch of options to take notes.

I'm already doing UDL. But the note making isn't increasing student understanding of content. It's not giving them more entry points to assessments. Right?

And so it's like, Well, why am I even gonna go through this process of doing this if it's not better outcomes for kids? And so I think that, yes, it's important to honor that you're using a lot of really effective practices, but to come in and say you're already universally designing, why am I even here then? Yeah. Like, don't tell people you're already doing this, but we're hiring somebody to give you professional development on it.

What I want to say is, I am sure you're using many, many practices that are brilliant and effective, but they're not yet working for all kids. And that is not saying that what you're doing is not high quality because my lasagna is bomb. Right? It is bomb.

No one no one is gonna do analogy.

Yeah. My lasagna is fantastic, but not everybody eats lasagna. Right?

Right. And that's what we're like, but that's the whole thing is, like, if I say, do you want lasagna or stuffed manicotti? And you're lactose intolerant, that choice does nothing. Yeah. That's And so it's really about, like, I'm not saying that what you're doing is not high quality.

I know I'm saying listening to this before lunch because this is making me hungry. Fantastic analogy, but it is making me hungry.

But the truth is, like, to say to teachers is like, I'm not coming in here saying they're doing it bad.

Yeah.

Right? I'm not saying that they're not doing things that are high quality. But the truth is, is that we're not meeting the needs of all learners yet. And even those learners who are actually understanding content and they're doing really well in traditional spaces, we know when they get to college, we know when they get to corporate.

It's a billion dollar industry to teach some of these really critical skills. How to work with other people, how to find your own resources, how to use AI more responsibly and ethically. And so if we're gonna prepare students for the future through this lens, then we need to think about what are our firm goals for teachers and what that looks like. You know, what is the instructional vision?

What do we wanna see in classrooms? And to paint a really clear picture and say, Okay, these are the firm goals. This is what success looks like. This is how you'll know that you're successful.

Right? Every day, you're explaining what you're doing, why you're doing it, clear success criteria, time for students to reflect, multiple ways for them to learn, multiple ways for them to make meaning. And then teachers can start to say, Well, I'm not doing that yet, but my materials don't allow that. Or, I'm not doing that yet, but I'm not sure how I would do that.

Right? And that's why we need collaboration. That's why we need professional development. That's why we need technology.

And so it's like a very intentional, how do we universally design our systems so all teachers can begin to design instruction in a way that better serves all learners so they're not, like, spinning their wheels, putting far more time than they should into this to not really change student outcomes. We're pretty stagnant internationally, which is so frustrating when people are working so hard.

Yeah. Absolutely. It takes some serious courage by educational leadership to help drive these changes. Right?

I mean, these are you're talking about some fundamental shifts. They're being held accountable to many of the same metrics. What do the, like, effective leaders do differently? Like, how do you how do you approach this in a way that, from a leadership standpoint, that really enables this type of drastic change?

You know, I think that when we talk about implementation science, the leadership drivers kind of articulate or identify a lot of the things that great leaders do. Number one is they create very, very clear instructional visions for the work ahead. There is no one confused about where the district is going. I think that when people hear about universal design for learning, if you go through the stages of concerns based adoption, which is, like, a really brilliant model, it starts off with, like, what is this thing I'm hearing about?

What is UDL? And it's like, okay. We can bring in somebody from the outside to help us all understand, like, what is UDL? And then the next question is, like, what what's everything I need to know about Like, tell me everything.

Ryan googles concerns based adoption, and he provides a link in the like, is that Yeah.

Yeah.

Everybody can know about concerns based adoption.

And then people go, what does this mean for me? And this is where a leader needs to say, like, well, over time, it's going to mean that you have kids in your class who have pretty significant support needs. Because as we create a more inclusive system, we're going be looking at eliminating some of the programs that segregate students, and we want to move to programming that is more inclusive. It's going to mean that instead of working in silos individually, we're going to start working together very, very differently.

So this is not every fourth grade teacher for themselves. This is the fourth grade comes together and says, What really does evidence say is the best educational experience? And how do we pull together, build that collective efficacy? It means that we're not just gonna be working in subject matter departments anymore because it's really difficult to be inclusive of children when we're not inclusive of the adults who serve them.

So we're asking general education teachers to take on kids with significant needs behaviorally, socially, emotionally, academically. And they have no time with adjustment counselors, with special educators, with EAL specialists, right, with behavior analysts. And so it's like, what it's gonna mean is your the work is gonna be different. Right?

We're gonna start looking differently at schedules. We're gonna start looking differently at the way that we collaborate, instructional materials. And then people go into freak out mode and say, What if I can't do this? And you say, You, I, I, the singular, you are not expected to do this on your own.

Yeah.

That's why we're bringing in the professional development. That's why we have instructional coaching. That's why you have more time to work with your colleagues. That's why we're looking at data so you know really early on what's working so you can keep doing it.

And you can also figure out what's not working yet so you can change it. The system has to change. And then people will say, Well, what happens if I don't do it? And as leaders, we need to say, Well, that's not an option.

Right? Like, this is where it's headed, and I have no doubt that you'll be able to do this work. We're not expecting you to do it tomorrow. Right?

We're gonna take years to build this together. But honestly, this is where it is headed. There is like a moral imperative to work towards this vision. And so how do we help each other?

And so that's where, like, leaders have to think about shared responsibility. They have to share about instructional vision, resource allocation, so staffing, time, making sure that families and communities recognize that we're heading in this direction. Education is going to look different. So what you're expecting your kids to have in terms of their experience is gonna be very different than the experience that you had thirty years ago, fifty years ago, five years ago, one year ago.

And we want you to understand why it needs to be different and how instruction is going to change. And so it's all very coherent.

Yeah. And it should transform every level of education. Right? Like, because I'm I'm actually thinking about my higher education experience where you've got you've got subject matter experts.

We're not necessarily, like, trained educators. Right? But they're they're dumping this knowledge into your brain, and not every student is very successful at higher ed. So in theory, this UDL model really should transform the entire lifelong learning journey.

Right?

Yeah. I think about the cultural shift and what you were just calling out there, Katie. I think a lot of times when, as educators, we try something new, it's difficult to really push it forward if we do not have the buy in of the parents and those that are working with our students outside of that classroom, whether it be others within the school or the ones at home.

Saw that with competency based grading and the, my child needs an A. My child needs an A. And you're like, no, that's not how we do it anymore.

They're like, no, I will not call people out, but there are certain people here in my own home.

We have this conversation over dinner almost every quarter. Right? Because my kids are at a school that are doing mastery based learning. And so it it just doesn't make sense because it's not what others know and are comfortable with, right?

Because you can't explain the understanding of the A is different in a mastery based.

And there's a whole different philosophical thing we could go into, but that's not the purpose of today. But Katie, you've also worked across K-twelve and higher ed now. So I'm curious with what Ryan just said, we really should be seeing this shift across that full lifelong journey. And so I'm curious with the fact that you have worked with K-twelve and higher ed, what could these two worlds that sometimes don't communicate and work together as well as we want, what could they learn from one another? How could they start collaborating more meaningfully in this effort as well?

So, you know, I think the intentional planning is going to be the same, whether you're teaching three year olds or fifty year olds or seventy year olds. Like, this concept of, like, firm goals, flexible means, learner autonomy, creating opportunities to use these emerging technologies really responsibly, giving time for true deep thinking analytics, and then just the collaboration community. I think that's all really important. One of the things that I would say is I believe that higher education may be a little bit further along at a systems level because it's become a financial necessity to be flexible.

Post COVID, I think that's the We know that, like, you students to enroll, you have to have online only programs You have to do the one weekend a month doctorates.

You have to be able to say, You were not gonna take off points if you missed classes. Right? Whereas, like, I got my doctorate in two thousand and nine, and there was no online program that existed in two thousand and nine if you wanted to get, like, a doctorate in education at, like you know, I got mine from Boston University. And, like, there was nothing that allowed me to go online at all.

It was like and this was when you had requirements for full time. So, like, there was one semester. I went full time for a summer, and there was one semester that I taught every day. I taught seventh grade every day until, like, two thirty.

Went home, walked the dogs, drove to Boston, which was forty five minutes away, took class from four to seven, four days a week, came home. Like, it was the only way I could do it. And I think that what we're realizing now is that there are so many options from community colleges, from traditional universities, from these, like, really specialized kind of trade workforce development schools that if you're not flexible, you're not competitive.

And with the exception of maybe your most top tier universities who still are only accepting two, three percent of applicants, I think that most colleges have realized that we have to do this differently. If we want people to enroll in college, we need to embrace the full variability of the human experience, that we're not just serving eighteen to twenty one year olds who can go full time. Yeah.

Financial reality of that is It's an amazing time to be a learner.

There's so many options. What do you want to learn? And you can do it in Yeah. Incredibly flexible ways.

And you're also competing with, like, free master classes. And and so, like, I think that in some ways, K to twelve is lagging because it's just simply, you know, most kids go to a public school, and it's not, like, really competitive. Like, you live in the town, you go to that school, and, you know, teachers are working really hard, and we do meet the needs of many learners. And so that kind of, like, that system is harder to move because there isn't this reality of, like, we're losing all of our students because there's not a lot of other options, particularly when the other options all have significant costs.

But there's those socioeconomic challenges. There's the geographic challenges. All those and they're, in many ways, getting worse, not better. Right?

I know. But I think that K-twelve, like sometimes people will say to me, Well, we're just, we're gonna be really, really structured because we want them to succeed in college. And I was like, Oh, spoiler alert, right? Test to get you into college is absolutely inaccessible, right?

Yep.

However, once you get over that hump, it becomes more flexible than it is.

You actually have you need more, like, learner agency to keep yourself on course, and you're like, it's all in you as opposed to this kind of rigid system that they had been working And not like people will go, Well, professors aren't gonna give options for note making.

I'm like, They're not gonna do anything. They're just going to say, like, This is what you have to learn. And it's like, kids, their attendance isn't checked in a lot of places. And if you make your notes, fine, but no one's checking them.

So it's like, you have to know yourself as a learner to say, This is how I'm gonna be successful in this space. And so I think that in some ways, what K-twelve can learn from higher ed is simply the nature of more flexible systems. I'm shocked, actually, that more public school districts haven't opened up virtual only opportunities for K-twelve. I'm shocked that we haven't started exploring more hybrid models.

I can't believe we're all still doing seat time. Right? I think those things are lagging, and colleges have addressed that. What I think that K-twelve does really, really well is, like, the relationship piece.

They're really, like, checking every kid for multiple domains to look at their data. I don't work with a single school that isn't every six weeks looking at every kid's academic, attendance, discipline, trying to reach out to families, working with wraparound services, mental health providers, right, is like the layers of support that a K-twelve district is providing. And even now we're seeing things like laundromats in schools, health clinics in schools for families, family centers. So I think that K-twelve is really serving communities, maybe over serving at the expense of, We're trying to do so many things, right, that it's hard to be really excellent at instruction.

But like, there was a need, and we stepped in, particularly in public education. And I love public education for that. But I think that we have to think systemically about the potential of having more opportunities for students to access public education in ways that resonate more with geographics, with socioeconomics, with technology and things like that. So, you know, I think all of us are trying as hard as we can.

And in some ways, we're all trying to close this research to implementation gap, and we're under resourced as we're trying to do it, which makes things a little more complex. But it's not about that people aren't trying, right? You know, Beverly Dane's Tatum Yeah.

That's not the criticism. Yeah.

It's not about intent here. Like, people are trying. It's just like we haven't had our desired impact yet. And what I know is our systems are brilliant at getting the results they currently get.

Yeah.

Yep. And if we want different results, we have to change the system.

Exactly. So to that end, if we have educational leaders who are listening, who wanna start to accelerate, you know, this kind of transformation, what steps can they take tomorrow? Where do put one foot in front of the other on this one?

I think the first step, as it aligns to, like, an implementation science, would be a really clear instructional vision. And very few schools have an instructional vision. Most schools have a mission or a vision, and I think of that as like the outside arc of the rainbow. So if a kindergartner was coloring a rainbow, they would do like red, orange, yellow, green, blue.

And so the red, the outside arch, is really about like, what is the mission and the vision of your organization? And almost every organization has that. And it's gonna be synonymous, like, with something along the lines of we want every kid ready for their future. Right?

That's always framed on the wall when you walk in the front hall.

So we have this outside arc, and we're saying, Okay, this is like, this is what we're here to do. This is our mission. This is our vision. Right? And then underneath that, we often have these core values, or this portrait of a graduate, which is like, you know, if we say on the outside arch, like, We wanna serve all families in our community to prepare students for this world.

And then the core values are like, we believe that being prepared for this world means being a global citizen, being a critical thinker, being a lifelong learner, being kind, right? And then underneath that, the yellow arch should be like, and this is what instruction looks like so that we can build these core values and so that we can reach our ultimate vision, which is every kid prepared for their future, which we know we're not there yet. And so in the instructional vision, it's like we believe that every child should access an education every day that provides them with access to grade level learnings with their age level peers, deeper learning opportunities where they're doing really authentic community based work, opportunities to differentiate and personalize how they're learning the materials they're using and how they share what they know as they work towards clear success criteria.

Right? And if we're gonna say something like that, then we need to step back and say, This will be true when teachers, right? This will be true when teachers receive professional development on being able to unpack standards and share with all students every day, This is what you're learning. This is why you're learning it.

This will be true when teachers truly universally design instruction and are able to work together to identify and eliminate all barriers to learning. And then you have this like, And this will be true when leaders allocate adequate time for teachers that I like that.

Their standards. To provide targeted professional learning and ongoing coaching for educators to continually hone their practice, right? And so I think that that's the next step. And then everything you do from there is you're using that lens to say, Okay, so let's create a baseline.

Let's see. When we walk into every classroom, are we seeing this? And it's like, Okay, no, we're not seeing this yet. So we need to change.

Where on that ladder did we miss the mark? Right? Exactly. You can actually define accountability. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think that that's like the simple way to start, just to like address some of the confusion around why are we doing this? Aren't we doing this already? And the fact that most teachers say, Can you just tell me what you want me to do? Can you show me an example of what this would look like and how it's different from what I'm doing now? And that's what learners need.

That's what clarity is all Yes, I just gonna say this is what we do for our students, right?

These are best practices of teaching and we need to teaching and learning, excuse me. And we need to see our instructional leaders doing that same thing for our educators.

Katie, this has been so wonderful.

Thank you so much for joining us every Just such a delight.

So inspiring. We cannot thank you enough, honestly, for joining us and getting the opportunity to have our listeners hear from you directly.

So thank you so Yeah.

There's loads of links. Think we'll we'll pull the notes here based off of your fabulous information. So, Your energy is always amazing. Like, this is I always learn so much every time we talk. So thank you so much.

No. I have loved, loved, loved this conversation. And you know what? Maybe we make it a thing like coffee with Katie with a k. Love it.

To universally design it, like, coffee could be Like, you don't know what's in this I got my water.

Right? It could be it could be water. It could be tea. I mean, I don't I don't judge if it's red wine. Mine is actually coffee. I'm gonna say this on the record.

I do have got my giant Stanley over here. My instructor Stanley. Nobody knows what's in that either.

Cheers. Will, thank you so much for having me.

Thanks, Katie. And I and we will have you back for And thanks to all our listeners. We'll see you next time.

Don't forget to like, subscribe, and drop us a review on your favorite podcast players so you don't miss an episode. If you have a topic you'd like us to explore more, please email us at InstructureCast at Instructure dot com, or you can drop us a line on any of the socials. You can find more contact info in the show notes. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Educast three thousand.